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A Killozapian Entry

Posted by Tarq, 11 January 2017 · 982 views

brexit nationalism
I'm going to apologize in advance for the following post as its often considered poor ettiquette to hold a conversation covering sensitive subjects. And I'm sorry that I should have to be sorry as these are the things that are often most deserving of discussion (but, no, the last thing you ate is juuust as interesting and beneficial -_-).

I feel it will help to make my political stance clear. I try to be very centred (general empathy seems to make me a little left-leaning though); I recognise that even if both sides of an argument do not present equally valid arguments they are clearly equally incensed and that it is the latter that must be remedied (heck, the prior often just gets ignored). It can be hard to keep a clear head and think rationally for a lot of people. I don't mean that in any kind of condescending way; this is just how a lot of people are (I'm probably the outlier by being pragmatic and a little cold).

That aside, here's where the post really starts. I'm really very fearful of the future. Not the far future, we're doomed from so many different causes that its almost comical (if you get bored sometime read up on dark energy and the acceleration of the universe's expansion for our latest dilemma). I mean our demise isn't really relevant when you cast aside our species' ego; our atoms could have taken so many different forms (and have already).

No, my lifetime is what has me concerned (kek, ego successfully cast aside). For the first week or so of Brexit I was in a literal state of anxiety; we had willingly gone from stability to instability and during the dawn of globalisation we gave a middle finger to the world stage. I guess thats fine; its done. And yeah, we've screwed ourselves a bit, but no-one else's fortunes are looking so hot either. The political side is a bother, but its something I've mostly come to terms with. Not least of all because there's another politcal shitstorm in progress and brooding over Brexit won't help. But if its not the political side of politics that's bothering me then eeeehh what's up Tarq?

Well, my poorly parodied friend, its the social side. The people surrounding me repulse me. Like, more than before. People are being openly offensive which is never great but is worse when its invalid. Bigotry is, well, big now. One win for nationalism has overriden decades of developing tolerance for others. Here's the thing about your nationality; you have nothing to do with it. Its where you fell out of your mother. Just because you we're blessed to fall on a particularly good patch of dirt doesn't make you entitled to it; you are entitled to nothing you didn't build with your own hands.

Disagreements in these kinds of affairs rarely work out. And thats fine with me; I don't want to be everybody's friend. But I need to get along with you. And you need to get along with me. That's how society works. And I can't get along with people the way they are currently behaving. And its a failing on my part; I'm the one who can't adapt (although my obstinance in the name of reason is becoming a point of pride tbh). So when I, admittedly foolishly, get myself sucked into these altercations every now and then its my own fault for not just putting my head down and acting like this unwarranted contempt is totally acceptable.

I guess what bothers me most is a lot of these strong nationalists (frankly, often racist) never seem to have spoken to a brown person. No really. An actual conversation; not an acknowledgement or a transaction. And not even something about their culture in some half-pre-determined attempt to learn about 'them'. That person was not a representative of their people. Alot of nationalists have, seemingly, never had a conversation with certain ethnicitiess about idk sports or science or whatever's their thing. And its not that surprising. I mean, those kinds of encounters are what make a person realise we're all y'know people and other hippy sentiments. While it would be wrong to despise a group for a bad interaction with a certain type of person its more understandable than similar dislike from minimal interaction entirely.

Now back my own concerns. I am now a member of a minority; it has become the bottom line of each of these farces discussions that Brexit is the precedent that we don't have to take kindly to tolerance 'round here. And unlike other minority's in this country who shouldn't be thought to hold certain motives due to having the wrong skin colour or holy day, I have explictly expressed my apparently unpopular views. This majority united over their express dislike of minorities; When they succeed in eliminating the visibly different how long before they start removing the other undesirables (like us 'terrorist sympathisers')? With the IPA well underway are the thought police really that far behind?

I often find it hard not to go into tangents (as you've probably observed) so I should probably stop. The TL;DR is we share this planet so just please learn to play nice finally. With everyone. And if you want to hate strangers just do it in private. Or when I'm out the room. C'mon, spare my feelings; I thought you liked white people.

When Trump won in the US, racists seemed to come out of the woodwork. I didn't realize it was the same in the UK. I guess that makes sense though seeing as the country took a huge step towards isolationism. Sounds like I'm not the only one who thinks we're totally screwed. 

Racism and discrimination has been a big problem since the start. Even with solutions being presented onto the table, some people won't move on and forget the past events that have happened to them, thus they bring this to the new generation of people as well. Even with isolationism, that still won't stop the racism and discrimination that is still happening inside the country itself. It really does disgust me to see the younger generation (at least some) are acting like this because they get influenced too easily with modernism and the events mentioned up above. I'm quite worried where the world will go myself :3

These events didn't magically create more racists. It just gave the existing ones more backbone. They feel like it's acceptable to say these things. It's not, and shouldn't be tolerated. Tarq, good for you for checking people when they say something racist. 

I shouldn't be applauded for losing my cool and I don't think racists/nationalists should be admonished; racists are people too :)


The best example I could give of persecution is against a racist. As 'the computer guy,' a couple of years back I was brought into a union case about some things said on an employee's personal facebook. That person was eventually reprimanded by effectively being fired (they were given a lower paying job in the organisation). Here's the problem; at work, that person left their prejudice at the door and everyone testified that the person showed the utmost care and attention to everybody. No matter how you look at it this person was penalised because of their beliefs, and that's something that's always stuck with me.


I don't view racists/nationalists as the boogie monster; they aren't some avatar of evil. A lot of them strike me as ill-informed or unable to effectively analyse the data they have and this leaves a lot of them living in fear.  And I don't want to censor or belittle people who think things that I disagree with; the regressive left is a serious threat. I just get worn out sometimes from listening to the same erroneous soundbites from people who are too eager to talk and not listen themselves.


But yes, the future is very bleak.

Losing you're cool, maybe not. Checking racists is. Let's call it a wash :) At least you;re losing your cool over something righteous. Racists aren't necessarily bad people. Some are, but others are simply misguided. Trying to get them to open perspective isn't really a bad thing. I don't have an issue with nationalism. I think having pride in your country is a great thing. It's when a nation a whole believes it is superior to others is when bad shit starts to happen. 


I'm against companies reprimanding and/or firing people based on what they have on social media. As long as what you are posting doesn't create a conflict of interest or speak ill of the company, then it shouldn't effect your employment. it also raises the question if a company should be checking their employee's social media at all, but the problem is that information is open to the public so even if a company isn't actively monitoring you, someone may stumble across something "controversial" and report it. You still have to be mindful of what you decide to show and tell the world on social media. There is a bit of an ebb and flow to it. personally, I don;t like the idea of my place of employment monitoring what I do when I'm not there. of course, I'm also posting this at work....so...um... what were we talking about again? Sports?

As usual Cookie is late to the party. As lone said the outcome of the respective votes didn't magically create racists, it simply emboldened them.


I'm going to go on a limb here and claim that the vast majority didn't vote the way they did out of racial malice. They voted the way they did cuz the other side refused to even discuss issues the voters wanted dealt with. However the left insisted to frame the vote as a racial vote, calling everyone who didn't agree with them racist, bigot and/or misogynist. This only served to kill the power of such labels, when everyone is racist no one is. The angry lower class stopped giving a damn and voted the way they did anyways. Now the actual racists falsely believe more than half the country agree with them and therefore it is OK to act out their primitive views.


A big thank you to the left for destroying our most powerful tools to push these peoples ideals to the fringe. We will suffer the consequences of your rampant slander for quite some time to come. I don't think the left should be punished for their immature behaviour, however I do hope (maybe naively) that the political left learns from this. Slander is not a valid form of discussion, it only causes needless harm.


My political stance might be relevant to know on this particular topic, I don't see my self as right or left, I just hold some key values dear.

  • Free speech absolutist (there can be no justification for censorship ever, but you should take responsibility for what you say)
  • Legal minimalist (law should only consist of rules absolutely necessary for our coexistence)
  • Practical supremacist (practical concerns outweigh emotional, cultural or moral ones)

A blog post named in honor of me and I didn't notice? I guess I haven't been here too much lately. Anyway, I kinda think all of the problems that the world is facing today is in a way kind of a good sign for the future. The old way of thinking simply no longer works. This is going to be one last desperate grasp for something people think they lost long ago, and probably no longer had in the first place.


ISIS for example, is desperately seeking the return of the great Islamic empires of old. Most people behind Brexit I think are still pining for the days of the British Empire, and Trump invokes the glory days of the USA's past... what days I am not sure, but just some great glory days. Only people have seen how ugly and wrong those old days really were now, and that ugliness is coming to the forefront. I mean, don't get me wrong, I don't mean to compare people who voted for Brexit and Trump to out and out terrorists like ISIS, I am just saying all of this ties to a common thread. And they are all going to absolutely fail, because the world simply does not work that way anymore. Nationalism isn't going to give you your jobs back, isn't going to return the lost empires. It's just going to make things worse.


But ultimately, that isn't the only problem. Not by a long shot. If it was they would just be scattered few angry voices in a crowd. I talked about the 'right' side of the argument, now lets talk about the 'left' side. The fact is that liberals absolutely let this happen. They had the momentum for a while there but dropped the ball. They got so caught up in identity politics, political correctness, and SJW bullshit that they allowed themselves to be made into a mockery. They focused so much on creating huge governments that milk people for taxes for their own agendas that they just make themselves out to be communist wannabes. They focused so much on making deals for trade to benefit big corporations and business over workers that they just make themselves out to be cronies. They spend so much time dealing with lobbyists and special interests that they just make themselves out to be paid for.


Both the 'right' and the 'left' are stuck in a system that isn't working. It's kinda amazing how absolutely backwards you humans have this 'government' thing. And I mean that literally. Why the hell is the most important people in charge of making rules and enforcing an idea of order in your government always so people far away and remote that you will probably never even meet? The most important people in working out basic rules to live by should be in your intimidate community. You should be able to go to a local meeting and hash out everyone's wants and needs. Your mayor should be the one with the biggest say in how resources get distributed, not some guy in a fancy white house or palace or whatever you have never met.


And don't get me started on economics. Sure the gold standard isn't perfect, but fiat currency is just a bubble waiting to burst. Cryptocurrency is promising, but isn't quite ready to replace fiat yet I feel. Taxes are understandable if you think of them as a kind of rent or tariff for living as part of a community, but distributing them so far and wide for programs that don't effect you or you don't agree with seems silly. What about crowdfunding a lot of public projects and programs? What about if services like maintaining highways and other infrastructure were paid by membership services of people who use them? Maybe the local government of each city will gather money collectively as taxes and decide what money gets sent to what programs further up the chain? I don't know, think of something, there has to be a better way then funneling everything through a remote central government.


Also, I wouldn't trust anything written thus far on 'dark energy' as as far as I can tell, scientists still have no idea how the heck it works. There are still a lot of things in the universe science is just kinda guessing at. And with the possibility of warp drive, wormholes. creating baby universes, and such still not entirely ruled out, there is still possibly ways to stop even heat death in the long term, we will just have to wait and see.

Fiiinaly the fairy responds.=D I agree with you for the most part. Liberal tend to try not to give big corporations more power. That's more the conseravite strategy with the whole "trickle down economics" strategy that never works (and just sounds hella condescending). Liberals do push more for more socialist polices, but does anyone really think something like healthcare shouldn't be? We're the only developed country that doesn't offer free healthcare for it's citizens. Instead we let insurance and pharmaceutical companies inflate the hell out of healthcare costs. The term "socialism" has been made to be a very bad word in America. Capitalism = good   Socialism = Satan worshipers. =P


Why do we have government and nations? I can fancy a guess. It's in our nature. Humans are very territorial, tribalistic creatures. Different peoples want to have a land of their own. Why do you think white supremacists want to "cleanse" America?" So our territory is all white Christians. (because they're totally the bestest people EVER =p) That's really why we have nations. We all want our own stuff and don't want to share. I'm not saying that's necessarily the right way to grow and evolve as a species, but it follows our natural order.


Now who's going to be in charge of protecting all the stuff and the people in your nation as well as ensure everyone either follows the rules or is punished? 

Government! One nation that follows by same laws and morays. Makes perfect sense, doesn't it? Luckily, the USA is one of the countries where people have a voice, and can speak out to change laws that are unjust or simply outdated Though more and more it becomes just the super rich aka 1% that have the most influence. We're actually not even a Democracy anymore. We're an oligarchy. A  small minority of our citizens has more influence in government than the vast majority. That's a whole 'nother thing, and something that needs to change because it clearly doesn't work. 

I wish I could share your optimism Killo. In the long-term you'd probably be right; in the way many people think the world wars (and a cyclical resurgence of a similar scale) were necessary for peace. But I just don't think we're going to get another chance at this point; with our last hand we're building a house of cards in tornado season.


And I guess that's okay. I mean, the likely impending fall is going to be super unpleasant but we'll adapt. Or we wont. Either way, the universe will keep on trucking. I just don't particularly want to put up with the surrounding needless and unwarranted aggression in the meantime. 



(By the by, dark energy is not really the issue. The universes accelerated expansion (despite the standard model's determination that it should be slowing) and the rate of that acceleration is the concern. Dark energy is just the commonly suggested answer as to this as, currently, we cannot otherwise account for the necessary mass; whether or not dark energy is the culprit is irrelevant really. Either way, all I was trying to get at with that paragraph was, when put in perspective, the current social and political climates are comical. Our, apparently collective, unwillingness to recognise that by simply being human every race is more alike to each other than we are to anything else in existence is comical. And that we are literally made of the same building blocks, building blocks that have been recycled into countless forms since the dawn of the recognisable universe, well, to suggest any sort of innate nationial hegemony is comical; for all I know the white girl across the room has a bit of Jupiter in her.)

^^Agreed. When we were killing each other with our petty squabbles didn't really effect the world as a whole. Now we have the technology to kill off just about everything but roaches many times over while constantly pumping the atmosphere full of CO2. Scientists keep screaming there little time left to change things yet we don't. 


I do believe most people do believe in true equality. It feels like the reason we can't get there is politics. Too many people too worried about their own self interests to try to help everyone. same goes for the above. We don;t have t worry about the universe ripping itself apart. We'll be long gone before that. Except me. I will live forever. =D

@lonequeso: Conservatives are more blatantly pro corporation sure, but liberals have been complacent in allowing them power. Just look at how Sanders came in with his bold ideas and the democratic party basically pushed him to the side. Not that I really necessarily trust the idea of 'socialism' either. To me it seems like socialism has all the same problems that capitalism does, only instead of resources being distributed based on who has a semi-independent arbitrary value like money, now the state decides everything.


Also, I am not saying you shouldn't have some kind of government or that everyone wanting there own stuff is wrong, that's not the issue. I am just saying the structure of your governments are silly. There is nothing wrong with being tribal, but when your 'tribe' covers half a damn continent it becomes stupid. It just seems ridiculous to me that everyone is trying to make decisions for everyone else even if they are on the other side of the world.


@Traq: I doubt there is even going to be some super tragic collapse. People will whine and rattle their chains, but in the end I think most of the people just don't care and just want to get things done and do what they want. The governments of the world continue to be inefficient and overly concerned with their own issues, and when people feel frustrated with them they will just end up finding ways to work around them. We have all sorts of smart people working in putting into place new ideas. I think that one way or another either nothing will change at all for a while as increasingly in effectual governments continue to snipe at each other until they are fully replaced, or new people with new ideas will change the governments from within or overthrow them.


Also what I mean by the whole Dark Energy thing is that the experimental data is one thing, but until we have a good way to explain it it could just be some weird fluke of how we are gathering it for all we know, or it could be that everything we know about physics is wrong and we live in a simulation or something. We just don't know. There is no use getting upset and depressed over our incomplete understanding of the universe's future. We don't yet know what the problem really is and if there is ultimately something that can be done about it.


Maybe in the far far future an AI network of warp-enabled and/or wormhole using von Neumann probes can go out and find a way to gather enough mass in one place to reverse the universe's expansion. Would that even be a good idea? I don't know. Maybe baby universes can be constructed with exotic applications of wormholes and string theory or something. We will have to see. Science isn't over yet, and if at that point it turns out we are hopeless to do anything to save ourselves then you have my permission to be pessimistic and nihilistic over it.

Yep. Both party's suck at life pretty hard right now. I'm curious to what you suggest our government should be. It worked just fine for a bit, and can again if we can cut out some of the corruption and get big money out of politics. Oh, and get Congress to play nice with each other. 

To quote Jack Nicholas in "The Departed", "I say kill everybody." Problem solved. =p

Your government should be a confederation of communities with common interests. To an extent western-style democracy already kind of is like that already, all that really has to change is to abandon the notion that the federal government has any real power besides making suggestions and working out deals.

So essentially you want to make the US into Europe. A collection of nations that govern themselves as they see fit, but all (usually) play nice with each other on the world stage. 

Yeah... Not gonna happen. 'Member that thing that happened a long time ago? The Civil War?

Oh, and the Federal government does have a whole lot of power, especially relating to global trade and relations. It doesn't absolutely have to be that way, but it's not going to change anytime soon. Probably not ever. 

Yeah, I remember, and I still wonder if the civil war was a mistake. Don't get me wrong, slavery was bad no matter how you look at it, but the south was already kind of on the brink of economic collapse and there was enormous pressure to abolish slavery sometimes even from within the confederacy. I think the ethical thing to do, the one that would have been consistent with the spirit that founded the USA in the first place, would be to allow them to succeed if they wanted. That being said, what happened has happened and it's hard not to see the result as a positive. Even if I was to go back in time and try to change history so my ideal path happens, there are still so many tragic and unethical things that the USA has done all the way back to it's founding and someone from our time coming in and trying to radically force their belief on people who are ill equipped to even understanding let alone accepting it would be no better then what they did.  


Besides, if you ask me it's almost as if the civil war never really completely ended and instead just continued to be waged throughout the generations in spirit even if the actual fighting has stalled a bit. Where the southern states who wished to succeed may have been given the chance to reform on their own, instead the choice was taken from them and many hardened their hearts against the result and fought it every step of the way. African Americans were freed from bondage, but not given rights. Then they were given rights, but not truly accepted as equals. And even after a long hard struggle they are still marginalized and discriminated against. I don't believe for a moment that once the confederacy was defeated and the states reintegrated into the union that the losers of that bitter war were satisfied. That long bitter divide I don't think has ever really healed.


Also, I am not sure if I am a big fan of the EU either. They seem a bit too heavy handed for my tastes and have too much oversight. The idea may be sound in theory, but the execution seems to me too much like a superstate.



Besides, if you ask me it's almost as if the civil war never really completely ended and instead just continued to be waged throughout the generations in spirit even if the actual fighting has stalled a bit. 

It did. With the exception of the deep deep South where they still pretend the South won. 


i was referring more to Europe before the EU. When each nation could act almost entirely on it's own accord. There's still the united Nations which is a good thing. 

My point is not that people are literally trying to keep the confederacy alive. My point is that there is a particular subset of people that, even if they still think of themselves as part of a united nation, have constantly and repeatedly rejected the politics and ideals of the northern states. There is a reason that the Republican party has followed for so long what is known as the 'Southern Strategy'. The wound that caused the Civil War never healed but instead a slapdash bandaid was slapped on it and it was allowed to fester. Had the southern states been allowed to secede, it may have been like an amputation. Radical maybe, but it would have contained the problem.


And yeah the UN seems pretty okay to me really. Maybe a bit ineffectual, but I rather it be ineffectual then having too much power. Seems a bit skewed to the interests of it's permanent members through their veto power though.

That Southern Strategy is a big reason I have a hard time trusting any Republican politician. In a nutshell, they exploit racism to gain political power. Democrats aren't far from angels right now, but at least they push for civil liberties (and actually want to do something about climate change).

I very thought I'd b one to declare a political party, but as of now the Republican party is just far too fucked up for me to support. 

I for one am half tempted to join the US branch of the Pirate Party, but ever since the Bush era I have been wondering if the correct thing to do if one is annoyed with the Republican party is to join it and try and reform it. I don't know.


I think this era of US politics is going to come to an end sooner or later. Both the Democratic and Republican parties have some really deep internal divisions that can't be ignored forever. No matter who ends up in charge or who ends up splintering off to other parties, it's possible that the Democratic and Republican parties of the future, if they still are called that, are going to be vastly different.


Because the kind of liberalism the Democrats championed for so long stopped working the moment it changed from a call to arms for the oppressed and downtrodden to morally smug oppressors in their own right, and the Republican resurgence is nothing but reactionary anger and resentment without real understanding of what the actual problem is. Hopefully this slap in the face will teach Democrats some humility and that they need to be more serious about their own problems and Republicans either wake up and start to actually stand for something meaningful again rather then riding a wave of anger and resentment or the party collapses and is replaced by the more sensible Libertarian party. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying the Libertarian movement isn't filled with it's own brand of stupid, but it's much closer to what the perspective of the 'right' should be.

Killozapit the politician. I'd love to see that. =D Both sides could definitely use some fairy dust right now and lots of it. 

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