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Why the dialogue system in Fallout 4 is screwed up.

LordSquirrel

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So, Fallout 4 has been out for, what, a week now? Something like that. And, unsurprisingly to people who people who know me fairly well, I have some gripes with the game from what I've seen and been able to play at a friend's. The opening feels rushed as possible, the settlement building is somewhat poorly implemented and clunky, the writing ranges from good to terrible and the dialogue system is really stupid.

 

I really don't have a problem with the voice protagonist... Did you hear that? That was the Fallout hardcore audience collectively gasping and screaming death threats. But, yeah. I honestly don't have a problem with it, I've always kinda found blank slate characters to be boring, and I find adding a voice and slight bits of backstory like F4 does always helps your character to feel more like a character. No. The thing I hate is the dialogue system, but not for the reasons you might think.

 

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The above image shows the F4 dialogue system, which I found on a sub-reddit for the game. We all have at least some idea of how this works and where it came from, right? If you don't, then allow me to spend a few seconds to explain.

 

This dialogue system is a sort of modified version of the wheel dialogue system which was made popular by the Mass Effect series. The wheel system has a wheel with six options, top right, middle right, bottom right, top left, middle left, bottom left. The system you see up above doesn't really have a designated name, as far as I know, but I know a few people who refer to it as a "Press Action Dialogue System." While that does sound slightly over long, when you could just called it a Press Speech System, I'll be using this for the rest of the post.

 

 

me1.jpg

 

The above picture shows the ME dialogue system better then I can explain it. As you can see, there are a few things of note. The top and bottom left are greyed out while the rest are a light blue. This is because those two that are greyed out are questions that are there for some additional information and they have already been asked.

Normally, these kind of questions would be in the investigate option, which would open up a secondary version of the wheel with only questions and a "Cancel" or "Back" option that will take you back to the main wheel.

 

The right side of the wheel is only for dialogue options that will progress the conversation onto the next dialogue branch(top right, good, middle right, neutral, bottom right, bad), usually with another investigate option and another three options that will progress the dialogue again. See how it works? Good.

 

 

Now. How does the Press Action Dialogue System work? Well, it works on similar principles, but almost always screws it up. The way the system works is that you have up, down, left, or right to choose your dialogue choice. Up being a question, down being bad, left being sarcastic and right being good. This sounds perfectly good, right? Well, it would be. But only if the game could actually stick to the logic of up being a question, down bad, left sarcasm, right good, but it doesn't.

 

Mass Effect ALWAYS maintains this internal continuity about how the options work. The right side of the wheel always has options that advance the dialogue, left always has questions (technically it will have a dialogue progressing option on rare occasions, but those are always colored differently to let you know that they progress and don't just question.).

 

Fallout 4, on the other hand, is all over the place on what the four options do. In the beginning of the game, it sets it up like the ME dialogue systems, but then it will just randomly decide that up is now a progression choice and not a question one, right will suddenly be a jerk response for no real reason, left will be serious and lacking humor, and down will suddenly be sweet. I know that some of you are wondering, "So what? This doesn't really matter, does it?" This matters very much, especially from a player stand point.

 

You see, the beauty of the ME system is that it is almost subtle in how your decision making becomes second nature. Because of the way everything is layed out, you know exactly what you want to do in a dialogue, and the descriptions are usually descriptive enough that you will be able to discern what your character will say.

 

F4 seems to lack this understanding. Constantly changing what options do what is annoying to many people are causes them to have to break their concentration on the game itself and carefully read through every option to make sure that they don't choose an option that don't want. And even that fails sometimes because the descriptions are completely useless a majority of the time. The most you'll get is a brief piece of text from the sentence that goes with the options, which tends to tell you jack about what you will actually say, or it will just give a vague description that still leaves you in the dark.

 

This is an important thing to remember for those of us who think about implementing such systems in our own games; if you have a system that operates like either of these, having a ridged way of how the options work so that your players are never left wondering, "Okay. What in the flying (insert profanity) are these options going to say, and why do they always change!?"

 

-LS

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I don't play on computers, and this was on the base game. I don't like it when people say, "Just mod it." It's just allowing the developers to be lazy.

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I haven't played any of the Mass Effect and Fallout games, but I get what you're saying. That's actually a pretty interesting observation.

 

Does the game explicitly say that the left up right down buttons would be for how the player wanted to react? Or does it only say something vague like, "The directional buttons will determine how you respond, with each button having a different emotion."?

 

But I agree that it should be kept consistent throughout, especially if it affects the story.

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I don't think I even saw a hint telling you how the options are supposed to work. I more had to intuit it from my own deductive reasoning and from playing other games with a similar system.

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Ahh, then it's possible that it was meant to be random. I mean, you'd have to figure out by yourself what the tone of your response is in each dialogue option. Wouldn't sticking to one pattern be a bit...uhh...I forgot the word. But sticking to say, 1 happy, 1 sad, 1 angry, 1 indifferent, it would be a bit too predictable.

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Game mechanics are meant to be predictable. They have to operate within a ruleset, or they become confusing and annoying, such as the example of the Fallout 4 example. You can argue randomness, but almost all of the game has taken out the random rolls and percentages that were in the previous games, so they were obviously trying to get away from that. The game is more based around getting familiar with it and learning how to become skilled with the rulesets layed out then anything involving randomness.

 

So it isn't just confusing and annoying, but it is also contradictory to how the game works now, with the only random chances being VATS attack and charisma percentages.

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Perhaps random isn't the best word I could've used. Personally, figuring out what will happen when I make the choice is more enjoyable than a predictable, "Oh, you want to be nice to the guy? Press left!" Since I take choices as one of the ways I can express myself in the game, I'd rather they have more variety than just 4 emotions.

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I personally don't mind only four emotions as long as the player character has some sort of personality setup already. And, honestly, there is no reason to not go a single path throughout the game as is the case with most games that use these systems. All of your companions basically only like it when you do good guy things, you only get the best rewards from going good guy, almost all of the factions other then the designated good guys are somewhat cartoonish, ect.

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Oh, I thought Fallout was the type of game to encourage both (or whichever) paths. A choice with a clear, definite, and mathematically "better" outcome is more of a calculation than a choice. But hmm, perhaps this isn't the case with narrative choices, since the world's reaction to your choice is part of the reward.

 

But other than that aspect, would you say Fallout 4's good? I kinda wanted to pick it up, but I haven't played the third one, so perhaps I should start with that?

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I would say it's good, this is coming from me only playing about five hours, and watching a few playthroughs and walkthroughs along with a few other miscellaneous videos.

 

The gameplay is far better than the previous game, mostly because it isn't trying to be Elder Scrolls with guns anymore, and has taken out a lot of the stats that, I hate to say, just kinda bogged it down. The graphics are pretty nice, the crafting system is pretty fun and addictive, the storyline is decently compelling as far as I've seen, and the companions are pretty varied and cool all around.

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To call Mass Effect dialogue system subtle is praise it's certainly not worthy of, but it is quite a bit more internally consistent than Fallout 4's. Paragon up right, neutral or goodbye to the right, renegade to the bottom right, questions to the left.

 

Fallout 4 has a pretty loose set of rules that generally correspond to:

Top - Relevant question.

Left - Practical, pragmatic, "Sarcastic".

Right - Negative, pessimistic, or apathetic.

Down - Positive, optimistic, or sympathetic.

 

For what it's worth, I think the original system made from Fallout 1 and carried to Fallout New Vegas was better. This was needless simplification to make it into a wheel, and the game didn't really need it. Voiced protagonist was a good call in the end though, a lot of moments would be cheesy, or awkward without it; like the player was Gordon Freeman or something.

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Back in my day, we needed to actually type words in. Okay okay, maybe that was something I was glad to get rid of. But what's wrong with at least selecting a large number of keywords or substances from a menu? Seemed to make just as much sense to me. Yeah yeah, I know regurgitating keywords at everyone until you get all their conversation snippets is boring and tedious and makes NPCs seem more like walking information vending machines then anything else, but I don't see how this new kind of system is really any better.

 

But I admit I never played Mass Effect or any game that used a more modern system then "select the topic/responce", so I have no idea how it works. It seems the trend nowadays is to treat conversation as a branching cutscene I think? It seems to me like that just has the opposite problem of the player not really having any way of asking about anything at their own pace since the pace and subject of the conversation is totally up to the NPC. Maybe doing both would work sometimes?

 

Also glad to hear bad things about Fallout 4 so I don't have to feel bad about my ancient laptop, and so I can continue to turn my nose up and hmph dismissively at AAA games like the dirty poor indie hipster I am. :P

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