Cheat my way into high replay value

[RetroExcellent 369]

I'm pretty sure I have an idea about what you have planned, but I just want to be clear (and perhaps simplify it for those who don't understand).

 

Basically what you have here, is unlimited options, but only things that make sense. For example; the bandit camp. You walk into the bandit camp, and you have a fire, with a barrel of ale next to it, you can shoot the barrel from a distance with your arrow or use a fireball on it and make explosion (stupid bandits for having ale next to a fire). Now this isn't your only option, you can (of course) just walk in sword swinging and fight. Or you could disguise yourself and sneak into the camp, or you can literally just stealth around, maybe if you look you find a spot in the fence you can sneak in.

 

Alternately, you can look around the map and find a cliff you can climb, up at the top you realize it is rather unstable, and cutting a tree down makes the entire thing fall and bury the bandit camp. You win, but lose out on all the treasure as a result. Or you can try to dialogue your way through (not pure dialogue since you said he was mute, but rather reaction options). OR you can snipe bandits from a distance, causing confusion among them, until one happens to spot you or you take them all out.

 

So basically, if you are intuitive enough, there is always an option for what you can think of...assuming the creator thought to put the option in. Is that basically what you are getting at? If it is, then I support it completely and hope it turns out half as good as it sounds.

[Rabie 39]

@Shaddow:  Yes yes yes yes.  Thank you for clearing that up.  Although the way you put it, it makes having a mute character a bit of a disadvantage for the dialog option.  I'm almost done with the flowchart, I found a nice flow-charting program.  But you summed it up quite well.  The player doesn't have unlimited options, but they are only limited to the designer's creativity/imagination.  Which makes my job to anticipate as many of their desires as possible and give entertaining outcomes for the lot of them.

[RetroExcellent 369]

I might recommend that you brainstorm, maybe not publicly, but with a group of close trusted friends who all think differently. This will allow you to gather a ton of possibilities for each scenario, and maybe even come up with scenarios you would have not thought up on your own.

[Rabie 39]

Sounds great... now for the friends... .

 

While I was making the flowchart, I noticed that there would be a little more freedom in certain scenarios than I thought.

This is based on the ability to back-track in those certain scenarios.

I didn't want that to be possible, or a key element as it generally degrades the completionists (I should know, I am one).

However it's almost unavoidable and I'd risk uncanny events such as path collapses, or blockades to prevent it.

I would like to bring the subject of back-tracking into consideration to see it's likely affect on the entertainment value and/or system compatibility.

[Bunni89 85]

My apologies, I didn't mean to derail by getting mad about derails XD This just shows how easy it is to miss the point and accidentely become a dickhead! XD

I'm glad it was all sorted out, and my apologies for the bad response. :< I have a tendancy to go all white knight when it comes to discussions like this, I need to stop that...

 

Oh, lol I understood the idea that it's still a plot template instead of completely open-world. I just figured sandbox was the closest word to describe it.

From what I understand it'd actually be more like a story strung out of many sandboxes? Like you have this big fixed plot taking you to places, but within those places you can do a variety of different things. Sort of like sandbox levels perhaps?

It's definately a very unique idea that I haven't seen before in an RPG, so I'm totally excited to see how you pull it off! Personally I adore CYOA books and hope someday to also make an RPGMaker project based on them. (But lol, not stealing this excellent idea XD) Maybe someday there will be a whole sub-genre of this kind of thing? *fingers crossed*

With regards to backtracking, I'd say NOPE. CYOAs don't really work if you can just turn around and go backwards within the story, they tend to be a "must keep pressing forward" thing with minimal options to choose where you go- even if you can choose what you do- and rarely the option to return somewhere else. I kinda like the "if you missed something, it's gone" aspect even though it makes them very hard XD Though this is a CYOA RPG so you can totally change whatever you want, haha!

But they DO benefit from a "turn back time" feature.The old "oh no I went down a bad path, I'll flick back and make the other choice" thing XD Loads of mini replays within the same playthrough, if you get unlucky often XD So I'd just say that it'd be a good anti-frustration feature to make sure the save system is good. Maybe just let people save anywhere and encourage them to do it often so they can try all the different paths without starting from the beginning? If it isn't too hard to do, it'd be neat to have a "Continue?" option when you die a la Kingdom Hearts and other games. Instead of prompting you to load a file it'd just automatically send you back to the earliest point to avert whatever killed you. (In KH it's usually the area before the last battle, but in this sort of gameplay it could be *boop, back to where you made the last choice*)

Oh and if you need playtesters (ideatesters?) I'd totally volunteer, if you'd have me! Lol I love roleplaying and having fun thinking up silly ways to solve problems~ And also there's a page on TVTropes about this sort of thing- the idea of the developer being prepared for every strange choice the player might make. It could perhaps help for inspiration? http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheDevTeamThinksOfEverything

In summary: I absolutely adore your idea and if I could help out in any way then just say the word!

[Jonnie91 1,149]

Now this is a brilliant idea. Now I understand it better. Thanks Shaddow for explaining it better. However, this can be difficult. 

 

You've got to to THINK about everything that a player would want to do. For example, I've quickly zapped open a map from Lullaby one of our projects now try this, what can you see that you can do in this map. If you have an unlimited amount of options: 

 

So far I can see 23 things you can do. But I can more than bet you can see more (I just looked briefly)

 

The issue is, that EVERYONE sees things in a different light. If your game boasts the ability to be "free-roaming" in a set area then you MUST be able to think of EVERYTHING that anyone could think. This means that for this game you will need to get beta testers...and LOADS of them  

[Bunni89 85]

Haha, I think it would be perhaps a fun exercise to get a bunch of volunteers to look at Jonnie's map and think up ideas? Sort of a "testing the waters" thing- lets see how much of a giant pile of choices we can amass from one simple house!

I think I'll have a go~ Well it's hardly necessary to state all the obvious "talk to that guy, read books, open fridge etc etc" so I'll just try and think of eccentric things that'd be fun XD

* Lift up the rugs and check for trapdoors

* Switch to thief and steal rugs (maybe they actually work as good mage robes or something? XD)

* Try and find a path to the king bed room (seriously it has no entrances.. that's why I was figuring the two rugs are connected..)

* Check out the bunny doll and pictureframe- maybe they're childhood mementos that'll give more insight into the occupants?

* Take note of the map scroll and all those letters.. I SPY A CLUE THERE!

* Inspect the quill pen! (got a sudden theory that maybe it's a disguised key or something?)

* Take stationary and write a bunch of letters to Ye Olde Parchment Sex Hotline then leave them around to frame the master of the house~

* Make 1000 origami cranes

* Put ham in coffee machine and see what happens

* Put coffee'd ham inside the lining of the sofa where it'll rot in serecy and stink up the whole joint~

* Eat flowers to see if they're poisonous

* Stuff lady into fridge

* Put lampshade on head

* Take lightbulb and heat it with the candle til it explodes

* if house is now on fire, throw TV through window and run for the hills

* If house is not on fire, take lamp glass shards and scratch graffiti into the walls

* Stack all the chairs in a big tower and jump off it onto the bed~

...okay I can keep doing this for ages but my ideas are just getting nonsensical XD You get my point though, there's a lot of possibility and everyone probably has a few of their own ideas. It'd be good to listen to a gaggle of beta testers and work out which of these ideas are actually useable XD It'd probably be fun to have a few totally ridiculous ideas just for comedy value as a reward for whoever would be nuts enough to try it XD

[Jonnie91 1,149]

Just to point out...It's a parallax map, you can walk under the ceiling You touch the entrance and it moves you forward  

 

Bunni69, although completely went crazy with it....showed how easy 24 ideas can turn into 41. (as all of her ideas, weren't ones I came up with)

[Bunni89 85]

Aha! XD Well I hadn't thought of that XD Haha I'm good with creative solutions and bad with logical ones XD

But lol now that's gonna be my solution to anything XD "Solve the maze!" "I turn it into a parrallax map and add invisible doors" XD

I woulda thought that stuff like "inspect the bunny" would be within your 24 basic ideas though? You could easily pad out a list just by making every object interactable, even if it only gives flavor text. I've always had a soft spot for flavour text and RPGs always tend to be lazy and make everything just be painted-on scenery instead of something you can actually use.. it's kinda sad when i can go "Wow! How unique!" cos a guy has actually written a description of a TV or a picture on the wall. Gotten so used to only being able to look at bookcases and pots for some reason XD

Relatedly I think it's dumb when some non-interactable thing blocks a pathway when it makes no sense- like a two foot tall fence or a log or a tree that you can't jump over or walk around or chop or burn despite having a big ol flaming axe in the hands of a dwarf barbarian with 150 strength. At least respect our intelligence and make the blockades more reasonable if they have to happen- I mean it's not too much of a stretch to replace a tree with a patch of thistles or a boulder or a hole in the ground or a dead rat that makes your char squeamish or whatever. Maybe even a bunch of sharpened stakes in the ground as a rudimentary anti-thief fence, thus hinting that some sort of intelligent creature lives in the forest... (and while you're thinking about this, an ogre jumps out and clubs you over the head)

Okay I went off on a tangeant but you get my point XD Interactables, varied solutions and unexpected consequences are fun! I always loved CYOAs where you'd get weird inventory items and use them for even weirder purposes by the end. Fighting Fantasy was good about that- amulets that let you avoid death by adding 10 to the page number whenever it began with the word "suddenly" and sneaky stuff like that, where you needed to remember something from half an hour ago and figure out how the hell to use it. And the Sorcery spinoff had loads of magic spells that required really insane objects like turning coins into shields or teeth into an entire goblin or needing a bright green wig to talk to animals...

[vladimirsan 3]

Sounds great... now for the friends... .

 

I'm willing to create a "mastermind" group to privately discuss our own design concepts and ideas. We just need a few more members (4-5 ideally)

[+ Titanhex 284]

 

 

 

Sounds great... now for the friends... .

I'm willing to create a "mastermind" group to privately discuss our own design concepts and ideas. We just need a few more members (4-5 ideally)

I suggest sending out PMs to members you want to discuss with then, instead of allowing sign ups via this thread.

[Rabie 39]

@Bunni89 Post 1:  The tvtropes webpage you linked was a very nice read, and I can only dream to approach that level, but that's the kind of developer work that is potentially required for my project.

 

@Jonnie91:  That's a great example of how I want pretty much the entire environment to be interact-able, only I want most everything to have a purpose in progress.  It isn't about all the fun time-wasters that make each scenario unique.  It's about how you can reach the end of a situation through many different routes.  Imagine all of the interactions in that set of rooms each having their own route leading to the objective in the area.
->Say the bookcase had a book-switch which spun you around to a dungeon room displaying the horrific events taking place in the house, the owner would catch you investigating and attempt to quiet you by any means necessary.

->Or the letters are from the owner of the household to a private address detailing a series of disturbing actions taking place in the household, resulting in the owner attempting to quiet you by any means necessary.

->Or the stereo turns out to be a baby-monitor type of device which when activated commutes an event happening in the dungeon to the player resulting in the owner attempting to quiet you by any means necessary.

->Or the refrigerator is full of severed body parts resulting in the owner blah blah blah...

->Or you can convince the other npc in the house to tell you what's going on resulting in a completely different ending to the scenario in which you bring law enforcement to the scene to catch him in the act of torcher or something of the sort.

 

@Vladimirsan:  I'd prefer to work on it individually, however the workload may force me to work in a team of writers.  I don't know how I'll solve the overload issue.

 

@Titanhex:  Of course not, this isn't the place for recruitment, the topic is for the plausibility of the design being entertaining instead of tedious or frustrating.

 

EDIT:  I know many of you understand the concept well enough already, but I'm determined to make that flow-chart and there's been a delay which rhymes with science project.  I'll get back to it sometime tonight when I'm done with more important life-decisions, thanks for the patience, and P.S. Ya'll are great!

Edited May 6, 2013 by Rabie

[Bunni89 85]

I think that was the best way of explaining the concept! Maybe you should edit the first post with an example scenario like that? The one there at the moment doesn't really tell anything about how it works other than "you can make several choices to solve a problem"- the bit about these being all alternate routes to the same scenario seems important.

Oh, I'd just like to add that I'm willing to volunteer to be an artist if necessary but I can only do saturday morning cartoony crud and not anime or RTP style. I can do overworld sprites though! I'm not available to do logo requests anymore since I'm never happy with them, but I can draw character art and whatever else.

[+ Titanhex 284]

You know King's Quest also follows a similar design of interaction with the environment, though maybe not perfect with what you're trying to do. Nonetheless it has a lot of similar elements worth checking out, as well as a few other games from the old company called Sierra.

[Rabie 39]

@bunni89:  You're right, I'll get around to editing the thread Original Post.  And I need any artsy help I can get.  I'm as graphically artistic as a tape-worm.

 

@Titanhex:  Sierra was pretty much what brought me into video games.  I used to watch my parents play Kings Quest as a kid.  When I got old enough they handed the controls over to me.  I'm glad you can relate, because I want that type of environment interaction (and more) to be present.  I would consider anyone who's beaten Perils of Rosella a worthy team-mate in development.  However it isn't a requirement.  Of course.

[Bunni89 85]

Ok! Just drop me a PM when you want me to make stuff! As long as it's not a completely ridiculous workload I'm fine with doing this all for free cos I'd be happy just to help you get this idea completed :3

Oh and while we're on the topic of Sierra games.. I'd personally hate it if you had any moments where all the possible solutions were completely ridiculous and nobody in their sane mind could ever think them up. I dislike games where the "challenge" is completely artificial and it's just hard to figure out what to do, instead of a situation where any sort of skill is actually tested. I ended up giving up on text adventures and point and click entirely because of this tendancy to have one ridiculously stupid thing you have to do to progress and no hints whatsoever.

It's annoyingly awkward to talk about because people use difficult to mean "challenging" and also merely "hard to do". But I'm saying that I dislike games where things take ages and piles of effort to complete, but it never actually relied on you being good at anything. Especially where it makes you think you have to imagine and reason out an idea and then it just comes down to "try everything and hope something works". Not much fun in that.

It's only honestly fun in a deliberately silly setting where it makes sense to try stupid ideas, and even then it can be botched so badly that it's still horrible. Mostly if it's possible to fail even if you're thinking randomly and figuring out the ideas- cheap shots like having to pixel hunt a tiny invisible item or a solution being possible only if you've already talked to a certain NPC. (Very annoying to try the right idea before the right flag goes up, and end up thinking that it doesn't work.) Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy had the most horrifying kick in the metaphorical balls- it was possible to lose the game within the first few scenes if you didn't pick up all the items in a certain area. BUT it didn't TELL you! You just kept on playing the ENTIRE GAME and then lost right at the ending cos you didn't have the items- and how the HELL would you ever figure out where you missed them?!

Edited May 7, 2013 by Bunni89

[Rabie 39]

@Bunni89:  That kinda happens at the beginning of KQ3.  Dangit I need to play those again

[Bunni89 85]

Glad I've never played that one! XD But I could complain all day about some others, lol! It's annoying because they're not bad games, you just end up stuck all the time and you can't exactly enjoy the fun game when you can't even progress past the first scene.

Anyway I think I might be going offtopic so I'll zip it XD

[Ocedic 249]

Ocedic, not to be rude but I really think you're derailing and you shouldn't be free of criticism just because you're staff. The OP asked for feedback on how this idea would be done, i don't think he wanted "no I hate choices in GENERAL, don't do it at all". I mean what is the point of even making a thread explaining a big idea and discussing how to pull it off, if you're even CONSIDERING the idea of not doing it at all? it's blatantly obvious that the dude has already DECIDED to do his idea- if you's hate it no matter what, then you have no purpose here. However if you have suggestions about what might be bad about how he's pulling off the idea of choices and how he can improve then that is what he asked for and what would be useful.

If this was a general thread about whether choice or story is better then your input would be very helpful, but it isn't. Step back for a second and realise that you are basically saying "you shouldn't have made this thread at all, you shouldn't even have thought about any choice-based idea and I'm not even gonna bother looking at what your idea even is" So you're shutting down everything everyone is saying.

I like choices. People who like choices are here to discuss how to do choices. It is derailment to just say "no choices, my pie charts prove they suck". The majority's opinion doesn't matter because this is obviously a game made for the sandbox genre, where people who like the sandbox genre will play it. Nobody would say "we should stop making rpgs because FPS games are more popular".

I think you entirely and utterly misinterpreted what he was asking for help with.

I'd totally accept any sort of punishment the mods would wanna give me for this post, because it would be worth it :< I think I was fairly polite and I can't see why I'd be punished for just telling a mod that he or she is incorrect.

 

Phew, ok now that that is over...

Thanks for the clarification, Rabie! It sounds a lot cooler as a sandbox sort of thing, from the way you initially described it, it sounded like one of those standard rpgs with literal choice windows instead of a more flexible system. I was imagining a visual novel kind of thing XD

Gotta say I definately like the idea of dealing with stealing by shuffling the thief to the front of the party and using a special map ability on NPCs! I've always liked games where your party members have different ways of interacting with the map.

Storing actions as variables would be way better than a karma system, I only suggested karma as a sort of shortcut to that kind of thing. Many people use it just because it's easier to create a general "you are good/you are bad" variable than logging a character's exact actions and looking at them to determine things. If you managed to pull off something like that, then it'd be truly amazing!

And @ magic2345: I love the idea of the fisherman's enemy rewarding you XD Unusual unexpected consequences are always funny! Maybe something like there's another guy who you can rob, but it turns out you stole a pouch of jewels that HE stole from the king, so now you have the king's guards chasing you? And other sorts of things to catch you out :3

 

Okay I had no intention of returning to this thread, but I was informed of your trainwreck of a post and I thought some things should be made clear because I will not have my words misrepresented. Not once have I mentioned my staff position, so don't use that to paint yourself as a martyr. I'm not throwing any weight around, the only person hung up on the staff tag is you. Nor do I get special treatment for being a staff. In fact, my behavior is held to a higher standard than you. So don't throw random accusations at me unless you actually have quotes to back those up.

 

The second part of being misrepresented is that you strawmanned everything I said. That's just downright rude and doesn't lead to any constructive discourse. Learn about logical fallacies if you want to have rational arguments, in particular: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man_%28disambiguation%29

 

Have a nice day and good luck with your endeavors!

[Da_B 4]

None of the events marked PLAYER CHOICE are unique decisions and they are each their own idea.  After each result, the player can make any number of choices limited only by their imagination, eye for possibility, and my personal creative thinking.  I would be required to think up of everything the player might decide to do, and make them as possible and equally entertaining as I can, but would it not be worth it?

 

 "would it not be worth it?" I don't think so. At least not as you say it

I've read the topic to the end, and I think I understand what you want to do.

 

As I understood it, what you're thinking of is a supple gameplay where the player can aboard a situation in anyway he pleases via interacting with its environment, and not a simple text-choice based game (which is a bit what your presentation might lead to think). But if you want to cover everything the player might decide to do, your game's already broken (okay that's nitpicking...).

 

Gaming is about considering the limits game disigners have set and see what possibilities of action lies within. Although limits can be seen as "given possibilities" (and are often best presented that way), they are limits. What I mean is that, if you start of having in mind to let the player be able to do anything he would ever think of doing, you won't go very far.

What does bring limitless possibilities in a game is not that a developper has thought of anything the player would want to do, it's that all different game mechanics (to use your exemple, inflamable objets, collapsable bridges, hiding, fleeing, environmental effects, spells, fighting, sniping from affar etc) can be mixed in an infinite number of ways to achieve your goal (as a player).

My point is : don't go spending to much energy on making an incredible amount of game mechanics in order to let the player do what he pleases.

 

I might have only rephrased what you were going to do, but that would be because you might have been a bit unprecise on how you're approaching the concept you presented.

 

Also, 'replay value' is a very archaic term/concept.

 

I'm sorry to go back on this, especially since it's a bit off-topic. But I'd rather say that it's more game length that is an archaic concept of judgement.

When someone stops playing a game before having finished it and never touches it back, it's because the game does'nt provide him any more fun. Which means that the gameplay was not deep enough to stay fun for the duration of the game (or that there is a moment of fun emptyness in a part of the game, which is not better).

The replay value means how much fun a second playthrough could bring, which is generally made by a change (or a possible change) in gameplay. It's not an artificial way of making the game last, adding more levels with undoable dificulty is, or even letting the game last when you've already exploited every possibility it has would be.

There is no fun in doing once a 100 hours game when you can only do one thing, but doing one 1 hour game a hudred times because there is always things to do that you haven't tried yet is the most fun.

 

EDIT

Burni89 said :

"I ended up giving up on text adventures and point and click entirely because of this tendancy to have one ridiculously stupid thing you have to do to progress and no hints whatsoever."

 

What, you don't like Monkey Island or Sam and Max ?

Edited May 17, 2013 by Da_B

[Rabie 39]

First, I realize I made a type at the beginning of the paragraph you quoted from me, it was meant to be "All of the events..." not "None of the events" *facepalm*

 

But if you want to cover everything the player might decide to do...

...

What I mean is that, if you start of having in mind to let the player be able to do anything he would ever think of doing, you won't go very far.

 

I see what you mean... I can't anticipate everything the player could come up with.  But I didn't intend to let them just burn everything down (symbolically).  As in... I don't want the player to be able to grind through the game when they find one fast and easy way to get through every encounter.  I just want them to have plenty of possibilities set out in front of them.  Enough to make them feel more involved in the game, as opposed to watching a character on their screen do the only thing that allows them to progress.

 

...doing one 1 hour game a hundred times because there is always things to do that you haven't tried yet is the most fun...

And that is exactly what I think will be accomplished.  It's basically the premise of the idea.  There's so many different ways to go about an encounter that it makes the player feel alive in game, and that would in turn up the replay value.

 

I'm really sorry that it's hard to understand.  It's just so hard to explain.  I'm not great at explaining it, yes, but stick with me.  I'm trying to get a demo up and running, because the flow-chart is a complete bust.  I was about half-way through when the program's free trial ended, I should have waited until I had more time (school was getting intense).

 

Let me run this by everyone for now... if you've ever played Kingdom Hearts 2, you'll get it.  There are games in which you aren't allowed to be creative at all.  The game practically runs itself at points, all you have to do is make a reaction-time/response action (the green triangle of KH2).  This idea is supposed to have the opposite effect by allowing the player to take their time to chose their own way to accomplish something.

 

PS:  I love KH2 (story)((inner-fan-girl)), don't get me wrong, it was just boring to tap Triangle and win the game.

[Bunni89 85]

 

Ocedic, not to be rude but I really think you're derailing and you shouldn't be free of criticism just because you're staff. The OP asked for feedback on how this idea would be done, i don't think he wanted "no I hate choices in GENERAL, don't do it at all". I mean what is the point of even making a thread explaining a big idea and discussing how to pull it off, if you're even CONSIDERING the idea of not doing it at all? it's blatantly obvious that the dude has already DECIDED to do his idea- if you's hate it no matter what, then you have no purpose here. However if you have suggestions about what might be bad about how he's pulling off the idea of choices and how he can improve then that is what he asked for and what would be useful.

If this was a general thread about whether choice or story is better then your input would be very helpful, but it isn't. Step back for a second and realise that you are basically saying "you shouldn't have made this thread at all, you shouldn't even have thought about any choice-based idea and I'm not even gonna bother looking at what your idea even is" So you're shutting down everything everyone is saying.

I like choices. People who like choices are here to discuss how to do choices. It is derailment to just say "no choices, my pie charts prove they suck". The majority's opinion doesn't matter because this is obviously a game made for the sandbox genre, where people who like the sandbox genre will play it. Nobody would say "we should stop making rpgs because FPS games are more popular".

I think you entirely and utterly misinterpreted what he was asking for help with.

I'd totally accept any sort of punishment the mods would wanna give me for this post, because it would be worth it :< I think I was fairly polite and I can't see why I'd be punished for just telling a mod that he or she is incorrect.

 

Phew, ok now that that is over...

Thanks for the clarification, Rabie! It sounds a lot cooler as a sandbox sort of thing, from the way you initially described it, it sounded like one of those standard rpgs with literal choice windows instead of a more flexible system. I was imagining a visual novel kind of thing XD

Gotta say I definately like the idea of dealing with stealing by shuffling the thief to the front of the party and using a special map ability on NPCs! I've always liked games where your party members have different ways of interacting with the map.

Storing actions as variables would be way better than a karma system, I only suggested karma as a sort of shortcut to that kind of thing. Many people use it just because it's easier to create a general "you are good/you are bad" variable than logging a character's exact actions and looking at them to determine things. If you managed to pull off something like that, then it'd be truly amazing!

And @ magic2345: I love the idea of the fisherman's enemy rewarding you XD Unusual unexpected consequences are always funny! Maybe something like there's another guy who you can rob, but it turns out you stole a pouch of jewels that HE stole from the king, so now you have the king's guards chasing you? And other sorts of things to catch you out :3

 

Okay I had no intention of returning to this thread, but I was informed of your trainwreck of a post and I thought some things should be made clear because I will not have my words misrepresented. Not once have I mentioned my staff position, so don't use that to paint yourself as a martyr. I'm not throwing any weight around, the only person hung up on the staff tag is you. Nor do I get special treatment for being a staff. In fact, my behavior is held to a higher standard than you. So don't throw random accusations at me unless you actually have quotes to back those up.

 

The second part of being misrepresented is that you strawmanned everything I said. That's just downright rude and doesn't lead to any constructive discourse. Learn about logical fallacies if you want to have rational arguments, in particular: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man_%28disambiguation%29

 

Have a nice day and good luck with your endeavors!

Excuse me but why are you dragging up the past? I didn't mean to sound like I was saying that you wanted to abuse your mod power or whatever, and I'm sorry if it sounded that way. I was just nervous about arguing with you in case I got banned, so I made a disclaimer. I know its an unspoken rule on many forums that you don't talk back to mods at all, even if you think they were being rude. If you weren't gonna ban me for saying that, then obviously I wouldn't look like a martyr..? o.O I wasn't intending THAT either. (WTF would even be the point of that? Who'd get jollies from intentionally getting banned??)

And you are really not making a very good rebuttal, sorry. You didn't address anything I said, you just went "STRAWMAN ERGO WRONG". I would have appreciated if you could have pointed out how I made a strawman..? I didn't intend that either and again, sorry if it sounded that way. Could you tell me what I did wrong so I can learn how to better argue in the future? I thought I was perfectly addressing the parts of your post that I found rude, and the fact I thought you were kinda offtopic and unhelpful. This was my honest opinion and even if it was wrong, I wasn't misrepresenting what you said. If anything I was just drawing a false conclusion from it, which isn't a logical fallacy or a sign of trolling, just a simple mistake. I overreacted.

Plus.. this is ages ago and it's over. You may not have noticed but i was immediately told that the problem was resolved and I immediately shut up. I even apologised for going overboard. Is there any reason at all that you decided to go "OH MY GOD WHAT A TRAINWRECK", aside from to try and provoke me into arguing again? Please stop. If you were around at the time I would have apologised to you personally also- not for some weird made up "bunni was trying to be a martyr" complex but because I was indeed quite rude in trying to respond to something I considered rude (probably even worse!), and it wasn't my place to butt in anyway. And the OP wasn't offended after all, and you sorted it all out, so there's no point to my argument anyway. Sorry again for all that. Sorry for my mistake. Sorry if I sounded really confrontational, I often end up looking back on things I write in the heat of the moment and cringing! XD

But if you're gonna provoke me, then I am gonna argue back because I am a stubborn bitch, and that's just gonna cause more of a mess XD Lets just STOP. Can I have my original "trainwreck" (or whatever) post deleted? And this one? And I'd kinda reccommend Ocedic also deletes that last callout post but feel free to leave that in if you want, it just won't make much sense XD I never intended to derail the topic myself and (like I said) I didn't wanna start a fight with a mod, I just wanted to try and politely disagree without sounding like I was rebelling against your.. modness.. instead of what you were saying. (Boy did I phrase that badly..)

 

 

@ Da_B: Haha, like I said, I gave up on that genre a long time ago. I haven't gotten to play Sam & Max and I wasn't too fussed on the early Monkey Islands. I know point & click games have probably gotten a lot better since those early days but I've just become disillusioned with them, sadly. Something would have to be REALLY good to rekindle that fire! XD

 

@ Rabie: Haha, I agree about Kingdom Hearts 2! It's always more fun to feel like you're actually causing something to happen, instead of just pressing a button to summon a preset event in a very narrow linear corridor. Better for immersion! Choices are like a way of adding that whole "I did it myself!" feeling to more things than just combat. Most games add choices to the story to go for a big sweeping kind of effect, but it's ultimately rather hollow if all you can do is pick good ending or bad ending. That;s why I like this idea a lot!!

KH2 was ridiculous with how it went out of its way to make even the boss battles and big story scenes super linear. The old thousand heartless thing was way less fun than it sounded cos in reality it was just "hammer triangle repeatedly til everything dies" with a bunch of not-even-challenging enemies. About the only good reaction commands were Reversal and Duel because they at least had a but of gameplay.

(I say all this as a fellow kh2 fangirl XD I get so critical cos I think of how it could have been even better! XD)