Monster Hunter Logan Redux

[+ morewordsfaster 28]

I kind of like this idea, although it is definitely drastically different from what you've done thus far. It really helps strengthen the idea that these are MONSTERS and are very dangerous and not little pests that heroes can take on in swarms (although, technically you could have a swarm of enemies be a single "monster").

 

A question I would raise is how do you differentiate your boss battles if every battle is a boss battle? I realize that's oversimplifying it, but what I really mean is how do you avoid it becoming really monotonous?

 

Interested in seeing how this plays out!

[Wren 179]

Seems that the script is being worked on now to provide icons for regular enemies.

 

Icons for states seems pretty important for my needs, so I might just wait on that.  It took me 2 or 3 days per combat system overhaul in the past, I don't see the need to make all fights boss fights.  I'll keep on track on making each encounter 1 monster affairs at least for the first few hours of the game, until I can ramp up the difficulty after adding all 4 character classes and enough equipment and other types of advancement so that more than 1 monster won't be too difficult, that being said, I'm going to ensure the common/battle events can be scaled all the way up to 8 enemies per troop just in case.  Doing the boring work now will make implementing anything later that much easier.

 

What I'm doing now is setting up a state that has no icon which is called target and this allows me to use a conditional branch to see if the enemy is inflicted with this state, and if so to do some processing to determine which element to make it weak against.  I can even use the same state to determine if a player is marked for a monster attack by setting a switch for each player to on if they were targeted at the end of a turn.

 

I already know I'm going to have to rewrite some of the lore/dialog events in the first part of the game, so I want to get this right.  As such I'll probably be putting up a combat demo by setting starting location and having a party select option and enemy battle events on a map so different party set ups and monsters can be tried out without having to go through the game intro.

 

Wish me luck, it's going good so far but then again I haven't tested anything so none of it might work, hah!

[Wren 179]

Okay, while working on combat I had an idea to do a major shift in the way the game is set up.

 

What if Rats, Scorpions, Snakes, Bats, Hornets, and Spiders were not monsters, just creatures that get more aggressive when monsters are near, and have actual monsters like:

 

• cockatrice
• chimera
• demon
• gargoyle
• gazer
• ghost
• goblin
• imp
• killer mushroom
• kobold
• living flame
• man eater plant
• merman
• mimic
• naga
• orc
• skeleton
• slime
• succubus
• werecat
• wisp
• water wisp
• vampire
• zombie

 

Slime being the weakest.

 

Then have the first job be to clear the water works of slimes, with a boss slime somewhere.  The hunter guild will have the creatures there to practice on, but they train to fight the other types of monsters, like a team of van helsings.

 

So as you are traveling the game world if you find creatures about (snakes, rats, etc.) then you know there are monsters in that area too, and you can try to hunt them down and eventually trigger a boss monster fight and earn your skill advances, maybe using a job point system script.

 

What this would mean for me right now though would be to make sure that combat against creatures is faster and easier.

 

Then I would like to give each monster hunter their own 'finisher' move which becomes effective if any enemy is below half heath, a state will be triggered with it's own icon that matches the finisher move.  This move will cause loot to drop from the enemy if it kills the enemy so that harvesting items takes thought.  The looted items will play a role in crafting and a means to make money.

 

Creatures will never counter attack, they are just much more aggressive beasts.

 

When fighting a monster (like a slime) when a hunter uses hunter's mark and sets up a weakness, if the wrong physical elemental attack is used on it after that, a counter attack will happen from the monster and remove the weakness from the monster so that hunter's mark has to be used again.

 

Monsters will also have the ability to remove the weakness themselves and recover from the hunter's mark, either through abilities or if several turns have passed.

 

I'm also trying to work on a system where a monster can target one of the party members and attempt a very powerful attack and have a two turn warning so you can get ready to guard, however I'm having serious trouble getting state icons to show up on the party members, and I can't tell which of the scripts I have is messing that up, so I will be pulling scripts out one by one to see which one is doing it, but once I fix that then the player will also see an icon on the targeted party member.  This way guard will play a very important role in preventing party members from taking massive damage as well as returning TP if needed during a fight.

Edited November 25, 2013 by Wren

[+ morewordsfaster 28]

Wow, Wren, totally reworking combat again! Definitely sounds interesting

 

I like the idea of the difference between "creatures" and "monsters," especially from a conceptual standpoint. It's kind of hard to consider a bat or a rat or a hornet a "monster." Are these enemies going to be on-map? If so, have you considered trying something like Ys' "bump" system as a way of making combat easier/faster? Say, for example, you "bump" into a creature from behind or from the side or something, the battle could just be considered "won" similar to in Earthbound when you initiate a battle with an enemy that is significantly lower level than your characters. If the creature gets the jump on you, then you have to fight your way through a normal battle. 

 

As for monsters, this approach could give your party a preemptive strike round or full TP or have the monsters already in a weakened/off-balance state at the start of battle. It would make how you approach enemies just as tactical as how you attack them IN battle. Shouldn't be too tricky to pull off with some common-events. Heck, there may already be a script out there that does most of the work for you.

 

Anyway, just an idea.

 

Oh, also it's cockatrice not cocatrice. Although yours makes me think of a Cocoatrice --  a half dragon-half rooster who's CRRRRRRAZY FOR COCOA PUFFS! I reserve creative control, spin-off rights, and theme park approval for Cocoatrice, Baby Cocoatrice, and any other Cocoatrice family character that might emanate there from.

[Wren 179]

Yeah, I finally got some fundamentals of the combat system to work thanks to even more scripts.

 

Now I'm using auto states and remove states scripts as well as loot drop set scripts to do a few things for me that was taking several common events to do.

 

Now I just need to get together a nice list of 1-3 abilities per monster and creature, hopefully 'iconic' ones to allow me to make them challenging, as well as skills for my hunters, monks, knights and spirit weaver.

 

Going to rework/edit my original post now and list what I am currently working on and what I could use suggestions on.

Edited November 25, 2013 by Wren

[Wren 179]

I haven't done anything on this project for a month now.

 

I can't get the battle system to work like I want.

 

It's like the database and combat system are bringing me down.

 

I actually would like it if someone else handled all combat and database stuff and I just wrote plot, made maps, and set up that side of it.

[Wren 179]

Okay, reworking combat again.

 

Thanks to about 5 or 6 scripts from Tsukihime I think I can make something interesting here.

 

What I am going to attempt is have troops be set up in such a way that it represents 1 or 2 enemies, each enemy being comprised of 1-4 pieces.  These pieces will represent target areas.  Each monster/creature type will be weak against a certain attack type/skill at a certain piece.  When a monster hunter attacks with the correct attack type at the correct piece, the enemy will take massive damage.  If they use the correct attack in the wrong area the enemy will take regular damage.  If a monster hunter uses a regular attack anywhere, it will do reduced damage.  If an incorrect attack is used in any area, it will trigger a counter attack.  A special attack will show all known correct attacks and locations on the enemy it is used on.  These are unlocked by performing the correct attack on an enemy in the correct area.  Players can also access the bestiary to browse defeated enemies and learn their weaknesses.

 

Runic monks will create runes and then create an activation rune.  When using the activation rune, they will be asked to use a rune.  Activation runes cost MP to use, and uses up the target rune.  As monks advance they can combine multiple runes to form hybrid or advanced runes.

 

Runic knights will take runes created by the monks and forge/enchant weapons and armor, these weapons and armor will grant attribute bonuses as well as unlock and teach skills while they are equipped.

 

I will want to add an equip option during combat so a player can equip the needed weapon for an attack during their turn.  For instance, you may have an iron dagger and a bronze axe equipped because you were just fighting a clay golem, but now you are fighting a vampire, and will want either a wooden stake or a bow and silver tipped arrow, so you equip one if you have one in your inventory.

 

Each hunter will be better at some weapons and skills and weaker with others, which will make picking a hunter companion on certain jobs based on skill an option.

 

I will also be adding monster/creature levels and classes so I don't have to come up with 'flavors' of monsters (like fire slime and ice slime), instead I will make classes and combine them with levels to ramp difficulty up as the game progresses.

 

As always, any ideas or suggestions welcome.

 

 

 

 

• cockatrice - Head / Body / Wings / Legs
• chimera - Head / Head / Head / Body
• demon - Heart / Head / Body / Legs
• gargoyle - Body / Wings
• gazer - Eye / Body
• ghost - Body / Arms
• goblin - Head / Body
• imp - Body / Wings
• killer mushroom - Top / Bottom
• kobold - Head / Body
• living flame -
• man eater plant -
• merman -
• mimic - Lid / Front / Sides
• naga
• orc -
• skeleton - Spine / Skull / Limbs
• slime - Body / Core
• succubus - Lips / Breast / Hips / Legs
• werecat
• wisp
• water wisp
• vampire - Heart / Head / Body / Limbs
• zombie

 

 

Edited November 25, 2013 by Wren

[Tsarmina 2,612]

Wow If you've gotten this far, shouldn't this be in Gaming Lounge already? (This is hardly a small theory at this point...it's a full-fledged working demo!) But anyway, you've really done well ^-^

[Wren 179]

The problem is I've completely ripped out my combat system and my database to try and make the battle system and character skills much more engaging, and thus I need to design a new one.

[+ Sughayyer 163]

Hey Wren, good to see you're working at MHL again! If there's anything I can do to help, just PM me! I've just rewritten the database of my game as well, but I'm working on a few side project to get more experience.

So, if I can be of any help....

[Wren 179]

Well, what I really need is a list of weak spots and critical attack types for each monster type.

 

• cockatrice
• chimera
• demon
• gargoyle
• gazer
• ghost
• goblin
• imp
• killer mushroom
• kobold
• living flame
• man eater plant
• merman
• mimic
• naga
• orc
• skeleton
• slime
• succubus
• werecat - Heart - any piercing attack with silver weapon
• wisp
• water wisp
• vampire - Heart - any piercing attack with wooden weapon
• zombie - Head - any blunt or piercing attack

 

Then I will also need a list of every counter attack a monster type will use when the incorrect special attack is used.  This will be in addition to any normal special attacks that the monster would normally use during battle.

 

• cockatrice
• chimera
• demon
• gargoyle
• gazer
• ghost
• goblin
• imp
• killer mushroom
• kobold
• living flame
• man eater plant
• merman
• mimic
• naga
• orc
• skeleton
• slime
• succubus
• werecat
• wisp
• water wisp
• vampire - Glamor - Attempt to charm character that attacked it, turning them against their allies
• zombie - Slam - Stun the player that attacked it

I'd also like a list of weapons and skills that the characters can use.  I am thinking about using the munitions manager script and having all monster hunters have a arm crossbow that they can load with different types of bolts to do some good damage during any combat engagement, as well as a main hand weapon that they can equip during battle.  Basically, it will make all of the monster hunters more like hybrid archer/light fighters, relying on identifying weaknesses and eliminating targets quickly and not tanking or heavy combat situations, that will be reserved for the runic knights.

 

• Knives - Silver/Iron/Wooden(stake)/Mithril/Runic
• Swords - Iron/Mithril/Steel/Runic
• Maces - Silver/Iron/Mithril/Wood(club)
• Axes - Silver/Iron/Steel/Mithril/Runic
• Crossbows - Silver bolts / Iron Bolts / Wooden Bolts / Mithril Bolts / Steel Bolts

Then each weapon will have various types of attacks, piercing, slashing, blunt, so each combination will need it's own good sounding name (which really is hard for me, I for some reason blank out when trying to think of these)

 

The monster hunters will also have a skill that will display the weakness and target area for the selected monster if it is known.  To unlock these they must either defeat one of the monsters or learn them from books/scrolls.  Will also need a good name for this skill. 

 

So that is where I'm at right now, working on things to set up in the database.  After I finish this I still have to work on the Runic Monk rune system and the Runic Knight enchantment system.

 

Any help from anyone would be appreciated since I really need to get the ball rolling on development on this project again.

[Tsarmina 2,612]

Oh wow, that's a lot. Uh, I'll try.

Obviously, for weak points, a lot of monsters will be vulnerable in the mouth. After all, cockatrice has deadly breath, so mouth is a dangerous yet critical target. Probably the same with chimera, with the whole fire breathing. I guess a water attack could be pretty useful against one of those.

Demons would be...uh...assorted, I guess.

Gargoyles...made of stone, so they really don't have many weak points. Maybe a water attack would affect them as well....erosion? XD

Gazer-eyeball

Ghost- if there was a way to pierce a soul that would work.

living flame- fire hose?

man eating plant- fire

 

Counter-attacks:

cockatrice-poison breath

chimera-fire breath

gargoyle-avalanche

ghost-haunt (maybe like a confuse/paralyze mix)

killer mushroom-poison spore/fume

living flame-eternal burn

skeleton-necromancy

slime-poison ooze (maybe a stuck-in-place attack)

water wisp- poison mist

 

I hope this helps a little bit~

[+ Sughayyer 163]

Without the guidelines and suffering retaliation with every wrong attack IN ADDITION to the attacks the minsters already perform, a trial-and-error battle can be deadly - and tiresome. So the scanning ability must be present from the beginning. Also, distdibute weak spots acoording to monster families (eg the ghoul's weak spot would be the same as the zombie's).

Another interesting thing is: make a spot with average damage and no retaliation (avg weak spot) and a spot that suffers much more damage, but with a heavier countsrattack.

[Wren 179]

Some good ideas, I will have to try and figure out how to do elemental damage when the monster hunters don't use magic.  Maybe alchemical/chemical gadgets, maybe do a whole play on technology vs magic or something.

 

It does open up a much wider area of weaknesses and cooler effects for monster hunter attacks though.

 

Now if I can only get the munitions script to work, I could maybe start fiddling with that...

[+ Sughayyer 163]

No need to magic nor technology. What about a xharacter that can tap on his ki (or chi)?

[Wren 179]

No need to magic nor technology. What about a xharacter that can tap on his ki (or chi)?

Doesn't really fit in to the overall lore of the game.

 

Basically, monsters almost wiped out humanity and thus a cult/order was set up with runic magic to protect towns.  Only recently has monster hunting started up to defeat monsters without runic magic, because in a tragic accident many of the runic monks and knights in a small kingdom were wiped out so they had to look for alternatives.

 

It would be easy to have the monster hunter guild leader create cool gadgets like arm crossbows with alchemical heads, vials of garlic/wolvesbane, silver, etc etc to help combat monsters, because it would fit in perfectly with the lore, the guild leader was turned away from the runic order because he couldn't use magic, thus he started to spend his life learning alternatives to magic, and as fate happens it turns out it was a good thing because of what happens to the monks and knights there in the town.

 

So...

 

Yeah, I still need to work out all of the ins and outs of weak spots, what they are weak to, and what happens if you mess up and use the wrong attack on a monster.

 

Tsarmina, first, hey!  Thanks for the suggestions!  Second, I really appreciate how you have been super helpful in all the posts I've seen from you, you really impress me.

 

• cockatrice - Is it eyes or breath?  I can never remember what does what, is it breath that turns you to stone, or the gaze?
• chimera - I thought this was a beast with 3 heads, I don't remember about any flame breath, but something about poison from the snake head
• demon - This will be hard to reason out since in my game there isn't heaven and hell, might have to name it something else
• gargoyle - right, solid rock, maybe their eyes are the only thing not made of rock and thus must be pierced by something
• gazer - Right, with you on the eye thing here, hit the eye with pretty much anything I'd say, since they are huge and exposed
• ghost - maybe silver?  or mithril?  Fire?  Don't know, again, tough one
• goblin - how about an iron weapon in the body, or any special attack anywhere, these will be right above slimes in difficulty
• imp - probably just have it where anywhere is good with any normal attack, but any special attack fails and call the thing a gremlin instead.. yes/no?
• killer mushroom - I'd say maybe turn this around and make it an antidote kills this thing, in any area
• kobold - chest/body is protected by armor, the only weak spot is neck maybe, with any slash or pierce special, weapon type doesn't matter
• living flame - water to the core, anywhere else it evaporates.. maybe
• man eater plant - the leaves or roots, with a slashing attack or poison bolts?
• merman - Gills with a blunt attack.....?
• mimic - This is monster that looks like a chest...maybe the keyhole? 
• naga - hard scales on body, only weak spot is the mouth maybe? 
• orc - Maybe make this guy be immune to all attacks unless it is from an iron weapon?  I'd like orcs to be super cool
• skeleton - how about only the skull or spine is vulnerable, if you break off an arm or leg it just regenerates?
• slime - slime core, any attack anywhere else does regular damage, any special attack to the core does really good damage, slimes are the weakest
• succubus - uhm... yeah, seems like I could go horribly wrong here
• werecat - Heart - any piercing attack with silver weapon
• wisp - I like the fire idea here
• water wisp - fire doesn't work, it is just extinguished, and only super cold works to freeze and shatter it
• vampire - Heart - any piercing attack with wooden weapon
• zombie - Head - any blunt or piercing attack

 

There, all of those are open to suggestions and also ideas for counter attacks.

 

Thanks all!

[Tsarmina 2,612]

• cockatrice - Is it eyes or breath?  I can never remember what does what, is it breath that turns you to stone, or the gaze?
• chimera - I thought this was a beast with 3 heads, I don't remember about any flame breath, but something about poison from the snake head
• gargoyle - right, solid rock, maybe their eyes are the only thing not made of rock and thus must be pierced by something
• gazer - Right, with you on the eye thing here, hit the eye with pretty much anything I'd say, since they are huge and exposed
• killer mushroom - I'd say maybe turn this around and make it an antidote kills this thing, in any area
• kobold - chest/body is protected by armor, the only weak spot is neck maybe, with any slash or pierce special, weapon type doesn't matter
• living flame - water to the core, anywhere else it evaporates.. maybe
• man eater plant - the leaves or roots, with a slashing attack or poison bolts?
• merman - Gills with a blunt attack.....?
• mimic - This is monster that looks like a chest...maybe the keyhole? 
• skeleton - how about only the skull or spine is vulnerable, if you break off an arm or leg it just regenerates?
• wisp - I like the fire idea here
• water wisp - fire doesn't work, it is just extinguished, and only super cold works to freeze and shatter it

 

Cockatrice is breath, basilisk is eyes. And chimera has only two heads--one goat and one lion, with a serpent tail. So it's a pretty weird combo, but I seem to remember the lion head breathes fire (from Bellephron's tale? Hm...I don't remember...)

Everything else seems pretty spot on. I like the skeleton idea with the skull/spine vulnerability. For the plant, root would be vulnerable since it's...well...the root of the problem (haha, see what I did there?). ^-^

[Wren 179]

Basilisks, right, maybe I should put them in too.

 

Now I can't decide if I should make special attacks needed at all, just weapon types and maybe give each monster hunter their own specialties like one will be good at blunt weapons, one slashing, one piercing one ranged, so that each one can use all the weapons but when they are using "their" weapons they get special attacks, so like ninja turtles a little....

 

That sound logical?  Any attack of the right weapon type (a combo of weapon material (wood/iron/silver) and type (blunt/slash/pierce/ranged)) into the right area (heart/roots/eyes) causes normal damage.  Any attack with the right weapon type to the incorrect area causes half damage to that area but not counter attack, and any incorrect weapon type to any area causes a counter attack.  Then the special attacks/skills from the hunters just do increased damage with their specialized weapon types, so like Logan who specializes in slashing weapons gets a few special attacks that can attack more than one part of a monster with one attack (as it slashes across them) and maybe another hunter does better piercing attacks that ignore armor, and the blunt specialist can cause stuns, that sort of thing, to give each hunter their own flavor.

 

That sound good?

[+ Sughayyer 163]

Wren, that is just about the same thing I said on a different topic, and I gues that for your game, it can work pretty well.

 

I'm going to make an analogy with a very old puzzle/adventure/RPG called BloodNet. It's about a cyberpunk/gothic/bleak future in which you play as a guy who just became a vampire. Well, I digress

The point is, there are 4 kinds of weapons: Melee weapons, traditional firearms, energy weapons, bio-weapons.

There are a few armor types: kevlar jackets and vests, inertia dispersion suits, refraction suits, insul suits, etc. Armors would absorb part of any damage (more or less), but they would completely shield you from a specific type (eg, inertial suits made you immune from firearms, but you could be hit by a laser cannon. Kevlar suits would absorb almost all damage from firearms and all melee damage. Refraction suits made you immune to laser). In that game, you pretty much had access to most of the equipment, but the question was: what combination of equipment must be brought to a scene?

 

I think that in a way or another this can work pretty fine for your game: of course, we will be talking about runes, enchantments, special projectiles and protective gear, as well as monsters' elements, monster's attack types, etc.  instead of technological equipment, but this kinda fascinates me.

[Wren 179]

Yeah, I will have to set up a script or alter the battle scene where you can equip on the fly so if you run up against a vampire and you don't have any wooden weapons equipped currently you won't be completely screwed.

 

Also I think integrating the munitions system where the main weapon of the hunters is a crossbow with a variety of bolts is available will help since to fire a different bolt you just attack, instead of spending a turn to equip a different weapon.

Edited November 29, 2013 by Wren

[Tsarmina 2,612]

Uhhh....(darnit, why am I not good at these ideas??)

Sure, I guess. I'm a little at a loss. But I think that you should stick to right weapon + right attack = big damage rather than just normal. For a lot of these monsters, such attacks would probably be fatal, so just follow through with the big damage that would come with a fatal attack.

[Wren 179]

Current Status Update

 

 

• Got the synchronized enemy script working
• Got the HP bars fixed so that they display only 1 bar per enemy
• Got the choice of munitions script working so that hunters can use multiple types of ammo with their crossbows
• Working on enemy levels, actor victory experience, and enemy level difference scripts
• Working on finding out how to manipulate enemy stats based on enemy level
• Gathering ideas on skills for both PC's and enemies.  Weak spots mostly gelled.
• Reworking Runic Monk skills to use charges from a Power Rune that powers other runes:

1. Runic Monks will create runes with a blank rune and runic ink.  These are what activate and pull Runic Energy from a Power Rune.
2. Power Runes will be basically a munition for the monks to use for any rune.
3. Some Runes will consume more charges per use than other runes.
4. A Runic Monk can power a Power Rune with their own magic points.  This can only be done out of combat.  This allows Monks to "save up" magic points by converting them into charges, but to compensate they can't charge during battle, so it is wise to charge up the Power Rune before going into a dangerous area.
5. A Runic Knight will be able to destroy Runes and use charges from a Power Rune to "Enchant" Runic armor and weapons.  When doing this they can combine runes for hybrid effects.

 

So that is where I'm at.  I will also have to completely rework the beginning tutorials and first dungeon to take into account the changes.

[+ Sughayyer 163]

Maybe it's better not to touch the actual gameplay until al the mechanics are properly set-up.

 

But good work so far!

[Wren 179]

Status Update

 

Well, production took a hit last night.  Found a bug in the choice of munitions script which I am not able to figure out by myself.  Each actor during combat will attack the target enemy, and it will show a damage result, but only a damage result with .0 at the end will actually damage the target, and if I run out of ammo/bolts for the crossbow, the next time I attack with it the game crashes out.  Until I get this resolved I can't work the monk system or work on any crossbow related skills.

 

I can set up the different attack types and weapon materials and start setting up all the weapons in the game.  Which I hate.  I hate database work.  Hates it.  Hate.

 

But it has to be done, so I might as well work on that while I wait to hear back from lecode about his munitions script.  I also can't get the equip skill / common event to work.  In an ideal situation I'd like to just be able to select a weapon from the available pool of obtained weapons the party is carrying and equip it and then returning back to combat without messing with combat turns or anything.  If anyone has an idea how I can do that, I'd super greatly appreciate it.

[+ Sughayyer 163]

I'm pretty sure I saw a script that allows equipment change on the fly.

Also, are you using fractions for the damage calculations? Why?