Demos - The Bane of all RM existence

[+ randomstranger 60]

Time is precious. To be melodramatic: when you play someone's demo, or do anything for them at all, you are giving them a portion of your lifespan. There's nothing wrong with being discriminating about what you play.

However, I also think it's good to be generous and contribute to the community, especially if you expect to get something back. Look at the screenshot critique thread: if you want feedback, you have to post feedback. Perhaps people who are struggling to get feedback on their demos could ask each other for help ('I'll play yours if you'll play mine' rather than 'it's not fair, why won't anyone give my game a chance?').
I really don't have any time for people who think they're magically entitled to it.

[MerlinCross 2]

I've only just joined this community and don't know a lot. But if you would, let me throw another idea into this hat.

 

 There's something that the companies and the indies usually do(or at least should) before a demo comes out for their game. Playtesting. Companies higher people, indies get a group of people, both tend to have 'beta' access. But what does this community have? Well maybe for some of the larger better made games that are popular might have this but most of us will not. 

 

I think Rabie is kinda right, just in a different way in some places. Creators might not see Demos as well a "Demo" but rather than "Public Testing". 

 

I'm sure a number of us have tried a demo only to find it in basically a half finished state, and told not to give opinions or advice but to basically Troubleshoot and bug test it. Demos shouldn't exist to fool people into testing your own game for you. Get a group of friends, ask some people at your school, something but don't try to mask a bug hunt as a demo.

[Tharis 212]

Just a quick reminder since there seems to be a little confusion about what the Blue text is about (and since this happened to land in my part of the forums I get to have the pleasure of going over it, oh joy.). Blue text should be used by Moderators only to ensure that no one gets confused as to what the text is about. Furthermore it is to help reduce amounts of flaming, spam, and potential insults of all kinds to people regardless of their stance on a given topic.

 

Amerk has used this in an appropriate manner. I just want to let everyone else know that if you need to emphasize your post to please use either bold or italics (heaven forbid both of them at the same time) these are available in the quick post tool bar above the text box. have a good discussion everyone!

[Clord 14]

So to be actually relevant on this thread, I gotta say that somewhat.

 

I run a youtube channel and do Let's Plays by request, however I have not turned down any demo playing requests just yet even though game might not be that ready to be shown.

 

Still I would like if some authors did finish their games a bit more before releasing even a demo version of them.

Edited August 12, 2013 by Clord

[amerk 1,122]

First, let's move on passed the dispute between Arco and me. It's been cleared up in PM and I believe was just a misunderstanding of what we both were trying to say.

 

 

There's something that the companies and the indies usually do(or at least should) before a demo comes out for their game. Playtesting. Companies higher people, indies get a group of people, both tend to have 'beta' access. But what does this community have? Well maybe for some of the larger better made games that are popular might have this but most of us will not. 

 

Play Testing / Beta Testing:

 

This is something that used to be quite popular back before Ace. It may still be in closed circles, but I don't hear about it quite as often anymore.

 

Playtesting. Many think this means releasing the demo for everybody to play, but in reality it means like Merlin said, finding a small group to playtest the game (or demo) before it's released.

 

Most will recruit for this in their development topic and request a PM if they are interested. A lot of people will also reach out to individuals within the community they are close to. You give your beta testers a copy long before you give access to the public. It's up to you to decide whether or not to give your beta tester an unencrypted copy. However, if you trust them well enough, and they are veteran developers themselves, you may consider giving them an unencrypted version since it will save time when they come across bugs they can fix for you (versus waiting for a new copy) and they may even be able to offer advice about why something (a script, a code, an event) is not working correctly. This, of course, is your call to make.

 

A playtester will usually focus on the big things, such as writing mechanics (misspelled words, incorrect grammar), any major bugs, and mapping mistakes, but they may also offer advice on smaller things as well.

 

A quick edit: Beta Testers should also understand they are helping on a project by playing and offering advice. They should be mindful not to try and take control of the project. It's ultimately the developer's responsibility about what to fix and change.

 

The developer in turn chooses what advice to accept or decline. Most of the time they will focus on the immediate problems (writing mistakes, bugs, glitches, broken game play, balance) and then file away the smaller suggestions for later - depending on public feedback. Afterwards, they then release the demo or game to the public to gauge public interest and feedback. They can't please everybody, obviously, and the developer shouldn't go out of their way to make everybody happy, or their game will never get finished. However, the developer should at least consider everybody's responses and focus on what seems to be the biggest concerns that effect the most people. Other things might not be addressed for this game, but could still be used for future projects.

 

As a developer, make sure to include your beta testers specifically in the credits. I've beta tested several times back when I was frequent on RMN for multiple games. And there was something special about being credited (both in the topic and in the game) for beta testing. Not only did it give me some understanding of the development cycle for when it came to my own game, it also got my name out there for others to see. The end result was I was getting requests left and right, and after awhile I had to bow out so I could focus on my family. This leads to my next part:

 

Community Contribution:

 

You can't really expect people to be drawn to your game (outside of curiosity and word of mouth) unless you've made a name for yourself. Being listed as a reliable beta tester is one way to do this, but also by getting involved in the community. Constantly helping others, answering support related question, completing reviews of existing games, being involved in other people's projects -- all go along way. If you can only choose one game to play, and you have a choice between somebody you know well versus somebody you don't know at all, chances are you're going to look at the topic and game for the one you know well first. If it's somebody you like, then even more so, since you'll probably feel compelled to help out a "friend".

 

Developer's Corner:

 

I don't know if people still understand what this is, or it's purpose. This should be the first stop on your way to development. While it's good to come here throughout your development cycle as you continue to build your project, it's even more so as you practice the maker tools. As I've suggested before, don't rush out your topic and demo right away. I understand the need for immediate feedback, and that's why we have The Developer's Corner, to get feedback before you've created a topic or released a demo.

 

You can come here to discuss early ideas, concepts, post screenshots of your mapping to get advice, and discuss the good and bad of gaming mechanics. That way you at least have a direction to go with your project once you begin working on it.

 

Consider this area as the pre-topic stage, the earliest you can probably get, but then continue to use this area for new ideas you aren't sure about.

 

Feedback in the game topics will generally be focused on the topic as a whole as well as demos and games released there.

 

However, in Developer's Corner, you can ask for direct feedback on specific areas or ideas that may otherwise be missed in the game topic.

[Wren 179]

What if we made a section of the forum and some sort of system to have a round robin demo testing where if you want your game played by people, you play the game above you in the thread, and then give feedback on your play request, thus if you want multiple people to play your game you must play multiple people's games. 

 

Possibly with a feedback template that ensures you just don't put:  "It was good, now here is my game"

 

This won't be intrinsically equal/fair since demo lengths can vary greatly, and maybe a max amount of time is needed per request (so if you want to test the first 2 hours that's fine, anything after that you put in a skip event to skip the first 2 hours)

 

What do you guys/gals think?

Edited August 13, 2013 by Wren

[Rabie 39]

We already have a team of reviewers.

I don't know what they focus on, and they may be busy with completed games as is, but they do work on demos too.

Plus, they're already practiced in giving more insightful review.

 

That's not going to solve the problem though.

There are just so many "demos" for games that have such little effort put into them.

It's so difficult to keep an open mind and still be rational while sorting through the sea of demo clones.

 

There may be an issue with demos not receiving feedback, but it has more to do with the fact that the few who take the time to give feedback end up getting bogged down with so many.

Then it just becomes degrading to put up with/grind through all of the lack-luster games with no appealing or unique features.

 

Maybe I'm different though, I just quit playing demos in general.

If someone suggests a demo to me, I'll give it a go no problem, and be honest with my opinion.

But I'm not going to go looking for a likely waste of time.

[Wren 179]

We already have a team of reviewers.

-snip-

How is this team selected?  Are there any review quotas?  Why is this the first time I've seen anything about a team that reviews games?  How does someone wanting a demo played supposed to submit their project?  Which forum are the reviews submitted on?  I've been on this forum for a year and this is the first time I've seen anything about a demo/game review team.

[+ morewordsfaster 28]

Maybe I'm speaking out of turn, but I think Rabie just means several individuals who review games or demos. I don't think there is an actual organized team, but I love the idea.

 

If I'm wrong and there IS an actual organized team of reviewers, I am just as interested in the details as Wren. I think that's an awesome thing to have in the community and I'd be interested in signing up

[Rabie 39]

Maybe I'm speaking out of turn, but I think Rabie just means several individuals who review games or demos. I don't think there is an actual organized team, but I love the idea.

This.

[amerk 1,122]

We have a review staff that reviews games, but they can only review so many, and the primary use is to provide notice of games we currently have, and to also encourage more people to review.

 

Anybody can review a game (not just staff), but we seldom see this happening. However, something that can be done is for the developer's to include in their OP that they are looking for people to play and review, and even beta test their projects. This may be enough to get interested people, since there are plenty who want to be a part of a project in some ways, especially if the project is something they are very interested in, but are afraid to annoy the developer about joining unless they know for a fact the developer is looking.

[Geekman 3]

My main problem with demos is that if I'm reading through a project thread and think, "This is the greatest sounding game ever," and then I see Demo download...

[amerk 1,122]

I'm not following why that's a problem. Is it because you were hoping the game was completed? If the game is in Showcase or Gaming Lounge, it's to be expected to be in demo stage. If you're looking for complete, you need to look at Masterpiece Theater.

[Rabie 39]

Maybe he means that it's gotten to the point that seeing a demo explains why the game looks so good in appearance:  great idea, bad work ethic.  <-- ?

[+ randomstranger 60]

...Or maybe the download is like 500MB for 30 mins of gameplay?