Demos - The Bane of all RM existence

[amerk 1,122]

A bit of a rant and rave about why I dislike demos, but also open for further discussion as well.

 

Note: This is about demos for freeware games. Demos for completed commercial games are the exception, so you can try before you buy.

 

When I first started with RPG Maker, going on something like 4 or 5 years now, I spent most of my time grabbing up every downloadable game I could see. I probably had acquired a mass of close to 1000 games on my PC at one time. Of course, I didn't realize the sheer amount of incomplete games, the majority of which would go on unfinished, not to mention the vast amount of shoddy, crappy games by people who put zero effort into their game.

 

I used to compell myself to play through as much as I could (2+ hours at minimum) before rejecting a game and deleting from the PC.

 

Of course, as time went on, I suddenly became the father of a girl (now 3 1/2 years old) and most recently the father of a baby boy. Awhile back I had finally cleaned my initial run of games from the 1000+ list down to about 10 complete games I've yet to play, only to have another backlog list of games I had not yet downloaded since Ace was evented, bringing my total back up to about 600+ games.

 

Aggravated, I decided that all I cared about a demo is whether or not it would intrigue me to get the final copy if completed, and so I literally only spent about 5 to 10 minutes for each demo and taking note. I've whittled it down to about 300+ total games left.

 

Now, I'm a bit anal. I keep notes of which sites have which games I still need to download, and a spreadsheet of demos, completed games I kept on my PC, games I've yet to play, and games I have no interest in after playing. The result being out of over 2000+ games I've tested or played through so far, only about 60 of those games were complete and caught my attention enough to finish them and keep them on my PC, and only about another 25% would I be interested in if completed.

 

This led me into recent thinking that demos are just a curse on our existence, draining every moment of our life. Probably about 75% of the current RM games sitting out on sites like this and RMN and RMW are unfinished, and most of those will probably go unfinished until the end of time. I no longer have the will power (or the time) to play demos, unless there is something about it that strikes me as a must play, and so I've decided to ignore demos in favor of completed games, and only those of which have a selling topic. By that I mean, a topic that intrigues me and pulls me in.

 

This, of course, creates a dilema that developers are in need of feedback as they continue their projects, and you can only offer so much feedback based on the nature of the topic before you have to actually play the game and provide more.

 

So my question really is: Are others just as burned out of the huge amount of demos as I am? I imagine to some extent this is true, since the amount of feedback I've seen in recent months has declined drastically for unfinished games than it was only a couple of years ago. And if people are becoming burned out to the point of not playing demos, what alternatives do our developers have in getting their games played and receiving feedback?

[Polidoro 104]

when it comes do RM games i am an absolute asshole. if i see only rtp material and large empty maps i wont even read the project thread. i understand this is horrible logic and that one should not judge a book by its cover but we are talking about video games here. not just text that could hold a great story. i am by no means a graphics whore when it comes to commercial games but when we're talking about the Maker, i need something to pull me in.

sadly 90% of rm games never see past rhe intro and MAYBE the fiest town. this 'fact' alone makes it difficult to take a demo here seriously enough to dedicate time into.

if it looks amazing or has some kind of unique feature than ill be happy even if it is only ever a ten minute demo.

just my input.

[amerk 1,122]

I'm that way when it comes to the screenshots of a project, unless there is a valid reason why the maps are so large and empty; but even in a joke game, there needs to be a sort of rhyme and reason. I'm actually lenient about the RTP, though, as long as it's used well. It does get old after awhile, but I'm more interested in game mechanics, story, and design versus the type of style. Heck, I'll even take a mishap of styles as long as the game is developed well, and the material is used as well as they can be for the map or scene they are being used on.

 

But when little to no effort is put into a topic, I do look away. It's not to be an ass, since the purpose of these forums is to provide useful insight to the developers. However, I prefer to provide that feedback to people who are sincere and have put in practice to understand and properly use the makers. I'm not looking for commercial quality, either. Certainly not everybody can make games like Star Stealing Prince. But at least try to put in some effort - play the games posted here and on other sites, look at the screenshots, plan in advance.

 

First-time projects should not be posted without first having put in a lot of practice. I've gone through several ideas, several projects, before I posted my own game, and even then I believe I've learned quite a bit since to make my next game much better.

[Rabie 39]

I think that a deeper problem lies here which is getting covered up.  I apologize in advance for eating your time if you decide to read the entire post.

 

Video Games are a medium unlike many others.  With them, developers combine art, science, history, literature, and the unique feel of interaction.  Very few people have vocations in all such areas.  Still, video games get thrown down as a childish toy, or an addictive waste of time.  The stereotypes and societal issues gaming has faced would seem daunting were it not for the even greater support it's gained from all of us:  the gamers.  I don't mean to stretch too far off topic, but understand that what I mean here is how much Video Games have lingered in the realm of children's entertainment to the eyes of professional society.  Even with the current booming of industry around Gaming, the ideas which approach it seldom reach as far as artistic.  Those who dare to place such high praise on the potential of gaming commonly get shunned out as immature or unrealistic.

 

With the more recent explosion of the indie scene onto pop culture, gaming has felt a surge towards the "even you can do it" market.  This has been a great and fortunate trend for the gaming culture; games like Super Meat Boy, Minecraft, Castle Crashers, and Dear Esther all hitting the stage front and center, even getting promoted by the industry, makes the overall gaming society a better place all in all.  Sure, there are those of us who would like to see the art games die in a fire, but it would not be in the benefit of the whole.  More artistic and unique ideas are being brought to the Video Game medium, and I believe it is the exact push we need.

 

Still, there are some expected yet uninvited side-effects.  With the success of these indie titles, gamers everywhere want to give their own inspiration, creativity, and ideas a run on the scene.  However hardly any of them have acquired the skills necessary to flame their ideas in the forges of development.  Even in teams, there are so many bars, hoops, and pits of lava to evade when developing a memorable gaming experience.  Before the explosion of easy-access to high-quality development tools, these gamers were forced to wait until they had a title to get accepted onto a team for development.  Even then, only small teams were given the opportunity to share concepts across the board.  Industries like EA and Activision couldn't care less if a programmer thought the art style of the game didn't fit the mechanics at all.

 

However, Enterbrain has given a simple tool to all those which can afford it.  With the Steam sales bringing RPG Maker VX Ace below $30, it is more accessible and convenient for pc gamers now than ever before.  Instead of seeking higher education in their fields, or the popularity to bring their own small creations to a large audience, these creative minds have flooded into the easy maker market, populating the online communities for Enterbrain's and other's game making engines.  Though a majority of the populous realizes the scope of the engine, there are many who have fallen for the advertisements and believe they are truly baby steps from making an indie sensation one hit wonder... at least, so it seems.

 

This is where I get to the truly on topic discussion of Demos.

 

Although Enterbrain has been releasing editions of RPG Maker for over a decade now- and there was the RPG Tsukuru series before them- the engine has been "upgraded" and "upgraded" to promote user-friendly functionality.  In the process, they have been decreasing easy access to the true mechanics, instead promoting the peripherals which grant small customization to the sub-mechanics which fuel the greater mechanic.

 

At first glance, this may seem like a loss for the greater good, but I think that most people will quickly realize the severe loss of creativity this brings the developer.

 

I may be stretching out on a limb here, but imagine if a clothing designer was restricted to making clothes which only fit one manikin.  They would be given access to any materials or tools, but the end result had to fit that manikin.  Plenty of unique appearances would make the scene, but the end result would only comfortably fit people with the same sizes as the manikin.

 

Let's relate this to the engine.  Developers without knowledge of the scripting language, or the library (the audience of the commercial) would be allowed to bring any material into their game, however they would be strictly set on what to use it on, and where they could use it.

 

Taking this to the level of development, what is a concept all developers should understand when going about, creating a project?  The mechanics are the slave of the idea.  Your game concept trumps all, and if you fail to develop the idea on mechanics which feed your theme, you have failed as a designer.  Think of a clothing designer who's idea is to make pants, but uses the tools, materials, and effort it does to make gloves.  Only the most talented, artistic, and dedicated designers can work in such strict conditions, which is why of all the great projects we see across websites, few cross the bar of memorable gaming experiences.

 

I don't mean to disapprove RPG Maker, I even mean to promote it, but I believe this is a strong underlying factor deciding the fate of most games developed solely on this engine alone.

 

There are some obvious other factors in play which cause developers to neglect/abandon their project shortly after making it to the demo stage, but most of theme come from a lack of education.

 

Anyone can tell you that it takes more than one person to make an amazing film, so why is it alright to promote individuals to try for amazing games on their own?  Logically, this makes no sense.  Looking back, literature was brought to the music medium through lyrics, music was brought to the film medium along with literature through soundtracks and plot.  Now, film is being brought to video games through cut-scenes, visuals, and gameplay.  We have only added more to the experience, yet we don't look for more from the developer?

 

This comes back to the idea that people haven't seen Video Games as the strong medium they truly are until very recently.  This can be blamed on the Uncanny Valley and also explains why even now, games which appeal to our more childish desires have been sought so strongly by the mass of non-"gamer" society.  It's why the Wii over-sold the PS3 and X-Box 360, and it's why Nintendo isn't worried about this generation's console wars.  Seriously, did it look like they cared how much Sony and Microsoft were dicking it out over the new consoles?

 

I'm getting off topic again, but let me re-adjust to education.

 

Gamers commonly base their gaming knowledge on the games they have played, news on gaming, and experiences they draw from gameplay.  This knowledge is vital to making good games, but isn't everything a developer needs.  A developer must take a different mindset when studying games to understand the connections within the game and game-to-player relationship.  When game development is handed over to the players, they commonly bring nothing more to the table than unique visuals or ideas.  Honestly, ideas aren't what to look for, I mean ask any gamer if they have an idea for a video game.

On second thought, don't, most of you are plenty busy already with your own great ideas.

With nothing more than what the player brings to draw from, these developers are often lost in what ways to bring the core concept of their work to the audience.  Even when this core concept can be put through the mechanics provided by RPG maker, the developer's skill, devotion, and resources are all limitations on the project.

 

This can often be whittled down to lazy developers who got bored of their own project, interested in a different one, or simply didn't have the time to finish it, but I believe there's much more to the growing trend in experimental games on these engines.  I believe they are here for a greater good, but also here for the foreseeable future; they'll at least be here until developers find a way to teach these amateur-indie developers the basics of the trade within the provided engine.

 

The demo project attached to RPG Maker 2 for the PS2, and access to the game's creation files showed players what it took to make a game of that scale, and gave examples to teach how those things were done.  This is one of the ways I can think of which will show game developers some (not all) insight into the game development backstage.

 

*Phew*, that was probably the biggest tangent I've ever gone on within a forum.  I'm glad I did.  If no one reads it, then no one cares, but I hope this clears up some confusion and inspires some people.

[Tharis 212]

Interesting take on this Rabie, I agree with a lot of the points you made to analyzing and potentially starting (if possible) a cure to this dilemma.  

 

One sad, hard and fast truth, to the matter of having so many (and continuing to get so many) new projects is that the developers themselves can't or maybe won't see it through to completion (and I mean this on a conceptual level not just a procedural one). One of the blisteringly hard things to take from the Ocedic reviews for my game, was the reminder that if I wanted the game to come across the way I see it in my head, I will have to go to ANY length to get there. This is the wall that most see coming down the road to development and either their Idea was too big, their time for developing gets taken by other things, or they wish to avoid that wall and give up entirely.

 

And so here we sit, with 2000+ games sitting in an endless ocean of titles, some clamoring for attention, others dead and adrift. And in a situation like this where it is literally this fight for attention, a drive to survive so to speak, that the truly dedicated are tested and those found lacking fail, to become the tide that works against all of those who come after. So the cure, as it were, is each individual's personal drive to finish a project. Like in life, you have a choice to either survive and flourish, try and hang on for dear life, or give up and fail.

 

To those who feel bad or could potentially feel bad for not playing a project, please don't feel bad. One day a person will see their folly and correct it, that is the day they will have a burning desire to achieve and adapt to any situation they made along the way to greatness.

 

as a side note, I am now going through the 3rd reimaging of my game for the purpose of making it better, I was at one time scared to go back and remake things, now I see it as the only true way to forge what I want my game to be.

[When Bugs Roam Ur House 656]

So my question really is: Are others just as burned out of the huge amount of demos as I am? I imagine to some extent this is true, since the amount of feedback I've seen in recent months has declined drastically for unfinished games than it was only a couple of years ago. And if people are becoming burned out to the point of not playing demos, what alternatives do our developers have in getting their games played and receiving feedback?

Interesting. I have to say though that i too am not a fan of demos.

 

I think it's because we have a much larger pool of demos/ people who use rpgmaker now than before, as well as the fact that rpgmaker is now made to be easier to learn/ find for anyone. As in, in the older days-- unless you were experienced + knowledgeable + passionate about games, or how games worked-- it would be harder to get + master rpgmaker. (Crap internet in early 90s + no one to ask about rm)

 

I also think it's because we know we can have a lot of attention, fame, and fans from demos. Before rm existed on forums/ social media, (and internet was still crappy,) you would get a name from uploading something complete. I don't think social media was developped enough back then, nor did enough people know rpgmaker, to know about new demos/ updates, missing extras, etc.

 

Posting updates and statuses about games is actually much like posting statuses on sites like Twitter or Facebook; from the friends and followers, to the sharing of new photos and thoughts.

 

 

These aren't the only reasons why we have so many demos though. It could even be simply because more people have internet access now so they can share their games, it's easy to find help and scripts so people aren't as motivated to self-learn, people want attention, etc.

 

 

 

I think instead of demos, developpers should privately ask only a few people, co-develop with other(s), or just ask family/ friends.

Then there's no hype/ pressure, nor the psychological problem of rewarding negative behaviour (not completing a task) and thus devaluating positive behaviour. (Completing a task)

Edited August 10, 2013 by When Bugs Roam Ur House

[amerk 1,122]

One thing I forgot to say, is consider why you are providing a demo. I've literally seen a handful of recent game that were no more than 15 minutes, and barely scratch what the game is about, or any of its mechanics. There was at least one game that had no more than 2 screenshots (both of which are on their topic), no game play, and just a few seconds of suggested story. And then stated something to the effect "Are you excited for it?" or something or other.

 

For what? Just to say, hey, I got RM and I'm starting my first clichéd, bug-riddled project that will probably never be finished?

 

A demo is meant to show off the final product and get any last minute suggestions to improve the game, or in the case of commercial projects, to see if the consumer would buy the game.

 

 

One sad, hard and fast truth, to the matter of having so many (and continuing to get so many) new projects is that the developers themselves can't or maybe won't see it through to completion (and I mean this on a conceptual level not just a procedural one). One of the blisteringly hard things to take from the Ocedic reviews for my game, was the reminder that if I wanted the game to come across the way I see it in my head, I will have to go to ANY length to get there. This is the wall that most see coming down the road to development and either their Idea was too big, their time for developing gets taken by other things, or they wish to avoid that wall and give up entirely.

 

This goes back to one of my suggestions made awhile back on another site. Worry about finishing the game first before fine tuning it.

 

One of the best advice I heard about writing (stories, fiction) is to actually take the time to write. There is a reason why there is a first draft, and even a second draft, before we get to the final version. When a person stops in the middle to worry over everything they've written, they're constantly looking behind and never forward; thus they spend more time correcting what they did rather than writing, and the end result is nothing is every perfect, they lose motivation, and it never gets finished.

 

The same for games, I think. Worry about getting the framework down, have a defined goal in mind, actually make the game, don't worry so much about the small details, and once the groundwork is done, then go back and make necessary adjustments. Release a small portion of the semi-completed game to get feedback, and have people test the game for mistakes. If the feedback suggests a complete revision of the game, consider that for a later version or a new project. Focus on the feedback that addresses the immediate concerns so you can still get your game completed. In other words, don't completely revamp the game because somebody doesn't like it, but don't ignore the feedback either. It may be something to consider for future projects.

 

I'd rather play a demo for something that is nearly finished and that I can have a hand in helping (ie., beta testing) than something that may never see the light of day.

[Tharis 212]

Well, everyone goes about getting to the finish line differently. Whether they create a frame work first and build on that, or meticulously toil over the finer details as they go changing and tweaking the work as they move forward. My point was that it is motivation and drive that will separate those who finish and those who release a demo and bolt.

 

So when picking up a Demo, rather look at the developer instead of the game they have developed.

[Arco 11]

Have you ever considered the fact that many post their demos solely out of the desire

for feedback and inspiration? Reaching the point of having a playable demo is a point

that every game designer (well, most) reaches when making their game.

 

You're saying it's a bad thing to want to get feedback and inspiration? Isn't that what these

forums are for in the first place? I don't think most people post their demos because they

feel accomplished or don't think their game will ever be finished. The fact that you play the

games for like 10 minutes, then ditch them, probably leads to the fact that these games

aren't getting finished.

 

I saw a topic a while ago on this forum about inspiration and how we keep going when we've

hit a wall in our projects. Much of it entailed feedback and getting help from others. It seems

that your problem with demos arrives simply out of the fact that you, like many others, don't

play them, don't give them a chance, and toss them in a dumpster. Sorry if I'm speaking out

of place, but I personally don't see any problem with demos and I think they are a great way

to take a look at your game and see if it truly is worth continuing.

[Tharis 212]

Well I think what Amerk is saying is, He's played close to Thousands of these demos and is getting to the point where it becomes detrimental to the community, like grass clippings choking out the would be new blades because they are just dead weight. It's no one's fault, it's just a problem and He's simply pointing it out. Hopefully this discussion will become a catalyst for someone who may have thought of giving up on their project and they will try to push through. Who knows?

[Arco 11]

Well when you play one thousand demos, you're sure to get sick of them and wish they were

finished. But the fact of the matter is that all games have to be demos first before they can

become full games (not literally, but you know what i mean). You simply can't avoid the huge

influx of demos here. It's all just people wanting feedback on their ideas.

 

Think about it, would you want to work on a game knowing that it was awful? No, you'd

want it to be perfect, so when it's complete, it's something worth showing. That's why we have

demos, so we can get a second opinion and maybe some reassurance that what we're making

isn't so bad.

 

And guess what else? When someone sees a demo, doesn't reply to it, or just shrugs it off because

it doesn't look good or the story is bland, of course the game won't get finished. It's all cause and effect.

[Radiant Arin 412]

I kind of have to agree with the above poster. The reason I put out my demos is because I'm not clever enough to spot all of the many bugs glitches or exploitations that I just happen to place on my game, so I put out a small demo of what I have so far to help stomp out those bugs, glitches, and exploitations. People who provide feedback on these demos, especially in a community-based sect like this, can mold the developer's game into a work of inspiration and art. It's a give-and-take process: the players give their feedback to the developer, and the developer takes the advice and makes the game better.

 

Also, if you're curious about whether you want a "demo" of a game or not, especially if it's a commercial game on like a Playstation or XBox System, then look up an LP of that game to see what you think. I generally think of Let's Plays nowadays as "try before you buy" walkthroughs, showing the audience the highlights of that game and how it plays out for you. If it's a game like "Walking Dead" for example, you can get just as much out of an LP walkthrough as you can if you purchase the game, because in that game, you can make so many choices that you can't possibly consider the same path as the one who LP'ed the game.

[Tharis 212]

Well it's not that you are wrong, I think you are just missing the point. This is an analytical discussion on why there are so many demos, what the cause of them is (even if that may be a negative initial overtone), and how (if anyone is even interested in having this happen) to help that stop.

 

To answer your previous concerns, no I would not want to make a game that was awful, but I'm also making the game because I want to, not because I care if anyone else ever plays it (if no one did, that would suck but I'd keep right on making it).

 

No one is saying to avoid playing demos and no one is suggesting that people should actively avoid giving feedback. I suggested that people shouldn't feel bad about not playing a demo but that is an entirely different thing.

 

My game, for a long time, got literally no views and was only responded to by me I started looking for reasons why that might be, and I found some of them, squashed them and the game started to get views and even got a few reviews. I could have left my original demo where it was, and given up, thinking to myself that "no one cared". But the point is, I care. I want to finish it for me, it's something I feel like I want to accomplish. 

 

Obviously I want the feedback, so I went out and found it. I put myself out there and became a part of the community. I made friends and I asked some of them directly to try it, and see what they thought and accepted the harsh and hard news along with the good. This is the point I have been getting at in all of my posts. if you are making a game and no one is viewing it, be more active in the community. Start by going out and giving feedback and people will be far more inclined to give it to you.  "You will get all you want in life if you help enough other people get what they want." - Zig Ziglar

 

Now that last part is not directed at "you", just in general to all people seeking feedback.

[Arco 11]

I understand the point perfectly, which is what compelled me to participate in this discussion (I'm not usually too active in

this community). I was just arguing another valid point that could provide another perspective to the op's qualm with demos

and such.

 

 

not because I care if anyone else ever plays it (if no one did, that would suck but I'd keep right on making it).

Many (including me), in fact, probably the majority of game makers here would

not keep making a game if nobody played their demo. In fact, if their game is bad, they probably don't have the

mental ability to push through that hard fact and keep working on it. You're obviously intelligent and empathetic, so I'm

sure you would keep making yours. But in case you haven't noticed yet, we're all different from the majority.

 

Let me put it this way.

 

Demos are like getting a drink of water in the middle of running a marathon. They help you reach the finish line. And if you

didn't get water? Well, people like you would keep running, but most others probably wouldn't want to run the marathon at all.

 

My final argument is that demos are not plaguing this community, rather they serve as a catalyst between the initial thought

of a game and the ultimate completion of it. If some are bad, well that sucks. But at least make the gesture to write a nice

comment telling them why it's bad.

 

And lastly (I know you'll hate me for this one), I also disagree with your closing comment. We don't all need to be friends to

sit down and tell each other what's good/bad about their game. If anything here is a "bane of RM existence", it's that not enough

people go and thoroughly review other games (me being one of them, but I assure you I plan to change that). We're a community

centered around RPG making, and there's no "making" if we just stop half-way and give up.

Edited August 11, 2013 by Arco

[Tharis 212]

I think you may have misread or misinterpreted my final statement, I didn't say you -needed- to be friends with people to have them review and give feedback. many of the people that comment on a given game are in fact not friends. My point was, rather that if someone is not getting the attention they want, they should spread that attention around first, and making friends is a good way to initiate that.

 

I'm sorry you would not keep making a game if no one played it. It is my opinion and this is me alone so take it for what you will, that people should make the game for themselves to enjoy. To watch their own world come to life, it doesn't need to be perfect, I often dream of what my story would look like if I had a 200 million dollar budget yet I'm working with free resources and have thus spent close to $500 on the development of it, so it's obviously not going to be that thing I see in my minds eye. But when I watch the characters interact with one another, and feel the pain of their losses, the excitement of their victories, the adversity of their trials, I myself enjoy it, the whole process of it.

 

I understand that we are all different, but regardless of who is what kind of personality, the entire motivation needs to come from you. Like running a marathon, it can't be about how many people are on the side of the road cheering you on, it MUST come from you, and be for you alone. Otherwise you won't make it to the end.

[Arco 11]

Well that's an acceptable way to end a debate. We're different. 'Nuff said. I still don't agree with

the op whatsoever, but I suppose I can understand his perspective.

 

Nice talking with you.

[amerk 1,122]

First off, to the idea that everybody deserves feedback:

 

You may argue that even those who create shoddy RM games deserve feedback, and that may be true, for those who are bothered enough to give it. But I strongly believe that it's the developers job to convince people to look at their topic and to provide the necessary feedback. If I see a topic that is poorly written, with screenshots that look my 3 year old made, I am usually quick to look away. Convince me why it's important for me to take the time to play your demo and provide feedback, when there are hundreds of others in line waiting for the same thing that are just as deserving, if not more so.

 

Now back to the point of my earlier frustration:

 

The point I'm trying to make is that I don't despise demos all together, but that I think there should be more effort in them before releasing them. While you (the developer) might be trying to simply get feedback, putting out a very crappy, no-effort-attempted demo is more likely to turn people off from the final product because a lot of players may see the developer as lazy.

 

Newbies to RM may not feel the way that I do. When I first started with RM, as I stated in my initial post, I grabbed up every possible download (demo or complete) and I forced myself to suffer through them, because I felt obligated to play the demo and offer some sort of feedback. Maybe it's just me, but now it seems that the communities are saturated with demos. A good portion of these demos are decent and deserve the feedback, but far too many are just the opposite: they are poorly designed, very bland, with little to no attempt made to properly use the tools before them, or they are very short simple concepts that could have been better served as discussion than a released demo game topic.

 

The end result is I seldom care about any of the demos anymore and I tend to steer away from that part of the forum. I've burned out on them, and I don't have the time to weed through them all when there are completed games I can offer just as much valuable feedback on that can be used for future projects.

 

I'm quite sure a lot of the new users of RM will eventually burn out with demos as well.

 

And that is also why I feel there isn't as much feedback and reviews these days as there once was, probably in part because of the over-saturation of demos, and not enough people caring to play them and provide necessary feedback. Back when RRR, RMVX, and RMN were the primary top dogs for RPG Maker communities, it wasn't unusual to find game topics with 5 or more pages of feedback and at least 2 or 3 reviews. Now it seems that a game topic is lucky to get at least 2 pages worth of feedback and 1 review. Most never even get reviewed now.

[Arco 11]

Again, I disagree. (I really do love this)

 

 

Convince me why it's important for me to take the time to play your demo and provide feedback, when there are hundreds of others in line waiting for the same thing that are just as deserving, if not more so.

Have you considered the fact that this is a community? That maybe it's just a nice gesture to post feedback? If the developer doesn't

make a good effort to convince you, tell them why so they can learn from it. Seriously, your problems arrive out of your own doing.

 

 

The point I'm trying to make is that I don't despise demos all together, but that I think there should be more effort in them before releasing them. While you (the developer) might be trying to simply get feedback, putting out a very crappy, no-effort-attempted demo is more likely to turn people off from the final product because a lot of players may see the developer as lazy.

It sounds like you just have an issue with bad games altogether. What makes you so sure that if a demo is bad, the full game will be better?

The reason we post demos is so we can get feedback on them, not so they can be shunned if they're bad. You act as if you can only respond

to demos with comments like "Good job!" or "Really enjoyed the game!". Critical feedback exists, you know. I can tell you're a strict disciplinarian,

but nobody is going to learn from their mistakes if they are ignored.

 

 

Maybe it's just me, but now it seems that the communities are saturated with demos.

Of course they are! Haven't you read any of my previous posts? People want to be reassured that what they're

making isn't bad! You're a father, right? It's like training your kids to ride a bike. Don't just give them the bike and

tell them "Go learn how to ride." You give them support and maybe some training wheels along the way. Would

you rather just wait about a month and then check back to see if they've fully mastered biking?

 

 

The end result is I seldom care about any of the demos anymore and I tend to steer away from that part of the forum. I've burned out on them, and I don't have the time to weed through them all when there are completed games I can offer just as much valuable feedback on that can be used for future projects.

I understand that this is one of your personal qualms, but frankly, it wasn't worth posting. The fact that demos are poisoning this (and other

communities) simply isn't true. Demos are a very important part of making a game, and there's nothing wrong with posting one, good or bad.

 

Your last comment simply has to do with the fact that many communities are receiving a certain type of member: One who comes in, posts their

demo, requests some graphics and scripts, and then leaves. I used to be on RRR, so trust me, I know.

 

In a week or so, I'll be posting my own demo, and hopefully, you find it worthy enough to play.

[amerk 1,122]

I'm not sure where the attack on my frustration is coming from, but let me be clear.

 

It's a community, for sure. And we're all happy to assist. That was never the issue. However, we are not obligated to assist, especially if the person is not putting in any effort to try. I posted my discussion to show my frustration, and to see if others felt the same way. I never once said demos should stop all together. Obviously you don't see it from my perspective, and that's fine.

 

And now for the blue, since you continue to attempt to insult, flame, and spam everybody's opinions:

 

It's fine if you don't agree with another's opinion, but please quit trying to belittle other's and their opinions, as if yours is superior. If you have something to discuss, do so, but telling somebody what's worth posting or not is not your call to make. If you bothered reading my initial post you would have noticed that I'm asking if others feel the same way I do, and if so how does that help the end user? In other words, I'm trying to find ways for us not to get burned out, and still help people with their games.

 

I'll quote it again here for you:

And if people are becoming burned out to the point of not playing demos, what alternatives do our developers have in getting their games played and receiving feedback?

[DP3 188]

I wouldn't say I'm burned out (not yet at least). But there is a fine line between a passionate project and one that isn't. It isn't hard to spot these types just in the project topic alone; I pay absolutely no attention to the games that look like there has been no effort inputted into the topic.

 

It can be argued that by doing so I'm not helping the author improve, but you know what, if you didn't put in the effort in the first place to showcase your game I'm not convinced you'll be any more motivated to make it look neater when I mention anything. In fact I have past experience to prove that for me.

 

Here's an example of a game that had a topic which actually looked really good, definitely not the best, but the effort is there and you can see it.

And here's the kicker, the game I just listed is actually fun.

[Arco 11]

Here's my blue.

 

About 4 years back on RRR, I had posted a game that I had put at least two months effort into. It was one of my

first games, and I was very proud of it. To me, I thought it was a decent game with lots of potential. Obviously, I

now realize it was awful, but did anyone ever tell me that? Nope. They just ignored it. I literally spent a week just

waiting for someone to tell me something about my game. I bumped... and I bumped... and nope. Didn't get a thing.

I just asked for it to be deleted and took a break from RPG Maker.

 

It's 4 years later, and I bought RPG Maker VX Ace and started getting into it again. I was determined to make an

acceptable game that people would actually respond to. So fast-forward to now, where I see fine gentlemen like

yourself proclaiming that they hate demos with no work put into them for whatever reason (I'm paraphrasing, not

quoting). Hm, well, that offends me. Maybe I want to post something about it. I don't like being harsh/blunt, but

I don't like your opinion and don't like this topic in general.

 

You posted a topic on how demos annoy you, while you don't have any sympathy for the people who make them. I'm

really sorry that I have act with such audacity towards an admin, but frankly, if the owner of the site posted this topic,

I would argue with him.

 

And lastly, I don't believe my opinion is superior, I think it's fair and I think yours is unfair and without empathy. Should

I get in trouble for saying I have an opinion and maybe arguing it? Well, you're the admin. Do what you think is fair.

Edited August 12, 2013 by Arco

[Galv 1,387]

Here's my blue.

 

About 4 years back on RRR, I had posted a game that I had put at least two months effort into. It was one of my

first games, and I was very proud of it. To me, I thought it was a decent game with lots of potential. Obviously, I

now realize it was awful, but did anyone ever tell me that? Nope. They just ignored it. I literally spent a week just

waiting for someone to tell me something about my game. I bumped... and I bumped... and nope. Didn't get a thing.

I just asked for it to be deleted and took a break from RPG Maker.

 

It's 4 years later, and I bought RPG Maker VX Ace and started getting into it again. I was determined to make an

acceptable game that people would actually respond to. So fast-forward to now, where I see fine gentlemen like

yourself proclaiming that they hate demos with no work put into them for whatever reason (I'm paraphrasing, not

quoting). Hm, well, that offends me. Maybe I want to post something about it. I don't like being harsh/blunt, but

I don't like your opinion and don't like this topic in general.

 

You posted a topic on how demos annoy you, while you don't have any sympathy for the people who make them. I'm

really sorry that I have act with such audacity towards an admin, but frankly, if the owner of the site posted this topic,

I would argue with him.

 

And lastly, I don't believe my opinion is superior, I think it's fair and I think yours is unfair and without empathy. Should

I get in trouble for saying I have an opinion and maybe arguing it? Well, you're the admin. Do what you think is fair.

@Arco. You are arguing against an opinion and as you've already discovered, people will have different opinions from each other. You don't like Amerk's opinion or this topic in general then that's your right. Your comments about 'not worth posting your opinion' and such make it strongly look as though you do think your opinion is superior. What other reason do you have to be so harsh/blunt to try to force someone else to change their opinion to yours? Bringing in the fact he is an admin and then using blue admin text further illustrates this point.

Even mods/admins here can have an opinion different to yours. You don't have to like it.

 

Now, back to the point... I'll quote it again (again) for you, because I feel you are very much missing it entirely here:

And if people are becoming burned out to the point of not playing demos, what alternatives do our developers have in getting their games played and receiving feedback?

This is what the focus of the topic should be.

[amerk 1,122]

Here's my blue.

 

1. The blue text is meant for mods, GM's, and Admins to use in response to certain behavior on the forums. It's not meant for you to undermine our positions. Tone it down, or it'll result in a warn. This is your one and only verbal.

 

2. If you truly are trying and can't make the cut, I don't mind helping. But why do you think a person should feel obligated to give feedback when a developer doesn't put forth any effort into their game. I'm not saying your game in general, since I have no idea what games you've done or will do. But there's plenty of them out there. I'll even add something else here. A good portion of the demos I played, used the sample maps without any sort of addition or changes done to make them appealing or make them fit into their game. Part of feedback is to explore the visuals as well as game mechanics. If all I'm seeing is default maps with default mechanics, why would I give the developer my feedback when I could just as easily give it to Enterbrain?

 

Note: I don't mind the sample maps. I use them once in awhile myself, especially if they fit that part of my game, but I always try to add to them and change them in some ways to give them a bit of a unique edge.

 

3. I never stated I hate demos, except for ones where there is zero effort put in. I stated they're just way too many to keep up with, and I'm burned out by them. Furthermore, I don't have the time to play them anymore, so I focus on completed games instead. I can't help it if you can't appreciate the fact that people's times are limited, and we may not be able to play through every demo like we once could.

 

4. If I didn't feel sympathy to the developers and their development cycle, I wouldn't have bothered posting this topic. I wanted to see if this was a norm with people -- as in, if this was becoming a trend with game players - and what can be done to reduce this fatigue so that we can continue to provide essential feedback without feeling overwhelmed at every single topic that features a demo. I suggested people to put more practice into using the maker before jumping at their first project, and put effort into creating a topic that will interest people into playing it. This may not reduce the oversaturation of demos, and I still may or may not have time to play demos depending upon life obligations and time constraints, but it's a fair suggestion, I think, and it may very well encourage more people to review the topic and try out the game.

 

5. Regardless of what you think, there's a definite decline in feedback. It may or may not be related to demo fatigue, for the most part. It could also very well that more games go up on more sites than they did in the past, and that people typically only provide feedback on one site or another, but seldom on multiple sites. Or it could be that people just don't care about RM anymore, and that they're too focused on their own projects to care about anybody else. Telling me you don't like my topic and that you don't think I'm being fair or empathetic enough doesn't change the fact that feedback (and reviews) are lacking, and that demos are a dime a dozen. So what do you think can be done to encourage more people to review and play these demos?

[Rabie 39]

So, I'm not exactly helping (as the topic is "Are you burnt out on demos?"), but I do feel like this is relevant to the subject.

 

This is more related to the Topic Title ("The Bane of all RM existence")

I think peoples' perspective of what a demo is has changed.

It used to be a piece of the game, compromised of enough elements from the game to base a fair judgement of how the game will feel.
Now, it seems to be thought of as "The first 10-30 minutes of your game".
There's often so much plot dump starting off the game that this becomes mostly dialogue.
If I wanted to read a picture book, I'd do so, but a demo should be exactly that, a demo.

 

I want to demo the game-play (mechanics), visuals, soundtrack, and style of this game.  Often times, I couldn't give a lick about the story.
 

The popular game market has streamlined the use of story to capture the audience's attention and make them want the game to know the rest, and RM devs have a bad habit of over-selling the story in their game.

 

I may just be different from everybody else, but I have always felt like story comes late in the line of priority.  I want the mechanics, the structure, and the effect before I even think about the story.

 

EDIT:  Realize that I haven't played nearly as many demos as most other people claim to have.  I have a folder of about 40 which I'm working on in my free time.  But my feelings are based on what I have experienced.  Obviously XD

[amerk 1,122]

I may just be different from everybody else, but I have always felt like story comes late in the line of priority.  I want the mechanics, the structure, and the effect before I even think about the story.

 

It's a bit of an oxymoron, but it's the truth. A good rpg will usually have a good story, but without good game play mechanics you may as well be playing a visual novel or reading a book. So I agree, while story could be lengthy and fleshed out for the final product, it should be kept minimal in a demo. It's probably why people suggest to begin a demo in the middle of the game, when an action scene is taking place, to allow people to jump in right away.

 

Most often when I play a demo, if there is a "skip intro" function, I do just that. Other times, I feel you can't get into the meat of the demo quick enough without first reading through a lengthy wall of text.