Murder Diary | Myserty, Ace-Attorney style game

[Bunni89 85]

Uh, this isn't "debating on something unrelated" and you have no reason to be such a total prick to someone trying to help. Even if you don't agree, there's no need to go "RAR GET OUT MY THREAD YER JUST BEING MEAN" >_>

I mean geez, I also disagree that realism is something this idea needs, but I don't think Obrus was trying to say your game sucks or anything.

It's not like all criticism is a personal attack on you.

 

EDIT: Also I think what Obrus is trying to say is that regardless of whether the setting is realistic or fictional it needs to be believeable. Like for example we can take it in stride that in the Ace Attourney world trials take three days and lawyers do the job of detectives and everyone has a punny name, but we still get bugged whenever a case has a plothole in it. Because that's something that doesn't make sense, even within the world of the game- "Why can't we use this piece of evidence to prove XYZ?", etc. Nothing about the punny names or the three day trial would cause basic logical reasoning and plot structure to suddenly stop working.

I just disagree with Obrus that "teen detectives" is something that reduces believeability. But if you were concerned about something like that, you could just establish early on that this is how the world works. Teens are capable of dangerous stuff, or adults are useless, or whatever. Many kids' shows do stuff like that- all the old guys who should be doing thier job are instead total dumbasses.

Even Ace Attourney does it- the detective is incompetant and the judge is senile, so you have to find all the evidence yourself and then take the lead in the court debate. And it's unrealistic, yes, but nobody cares cos that's just how the game works.

Edited November 12, 2013 by Bunni89

[Blindga 144]

I think Obrusnine got off on the wrong foot with this point, but it is valid not just to this story, but in all forms of writing. You would be making a grave error to not listen to what he is trying to say. I implore you all to take a second to reconsider what you are saying and allow me to clarify on this.

 

Take your day today. What did you do? Imagine writing that into a story. Nothing special, right? This would be 100% realistic, and 100% believable. At least in most cases... now imagine writing a world of dragons and sorcery and an evil plot to destroy the kingdom. Not realistic is it? But it could still be believable.

 

Believability is valuable to the coherence of a story. It is logic. But logic does not have to be realistic. It just has to make sense. When something is believable we can accept it as 'real' in the story even when it clearly isn't real in our life. When you break established logic, when you make inexcusable breaks from the reality you create, it comes off as odd, surreal, or strange. When done too much, it can break the story; causing it to take on a different nature than the one you created it for.

 

You have to use your world and plot to establish a logic where impossible things could happen. This is why it is so easy to make believable settings where fantasy is involved, because things like 'magic' 'demonic forces' and 'a world far from out own' can easily excuse the logic as we know and allow things that would otherwise be unrealistic to seem realistic.

 

That's what believability is. The illusion that something is real and interesting even when it is clearly not.

 

That said, you DO NOT have to make a story totally believable either.

 

I'm glad you mentioned you look up to the Ace Attorney series, because that is a fine example of exactly what I mean. In Ace Attorney, you have a mix of believable elements and breaks from reality. It's set on earth where changes to the legal system of streamlined court trials and turned them into hot battles of wits and wisdom. But at the same time, you have a world full of zany characters with flowery ways of thinking that would otherwise seem stupid or too crazy to be real personalities for the earth as we know it.

 

But this is ok. There is a thing I call an 'acceptable break' where little things you do that otherwise do not make sense with the world you establish have so little impact on the story that you can get away with it anyways. It still takes out some believability, but the extra bit of freedom and little change to the story could be all around good when done in moderation.

 

So, back to Ace Attorney, you have strange characters. People so off that there is no way they would seem sane in this earth, or even a near realistic-future earth.  Fantastical thinking is often an easily excused thing though; an acceptable break I would say. And it does the story good! The people are more colorful than what you would normally see, but the bright personalities, masterful dialogue, and strong motivations create a sort of action-anime feel that's incredibly unique and very well done. Sure, it's not quite as believable given that it's supposed to be in the same world as we know it, But it was done deliberately and intelligently to give the story a different feel that a totally believable or more realistic setting would have given.

 

Which brings us to the point in your story.

 

Ask yourself why in Ace Attorney this has this particular feel? It seems strange personalities are the norm almost. Yet you have all sorts of colorful characters in games like the Touhou Series and the Tales of... series and they give an entirely different feel.

 

The trick is in your setting. Earth. In fantasy worlds it is easier to create a believable fantasy logic because we do not know that world. When you use our own world as the setting you have a tougher obstacle to overcome, because earth is not only a predefined setting, but one we know very well. The expectation for believability is much higher, and inexcusable mistakes in logic will make your story seem much stranger very quickly.

 

Here are the things I think you are failing to mention here. Or rather, things you should think about.

 

1) Crime Investigation Class: As far as I know in America where I live, the closest thing I got to this in school was HS forensics. Given that school is a place of learning, and investigating a crime scene is a very VERY serious job that demands proficiency, this seems unlikely. Counter this by giving a reason why this would be allowed. Why would someone so young and inexperienced be allowed to go to a place of murder and intrigue?

 

2) Solve crimes before they happen: An interesting thought, but just to clarify on something. You said in most cases they fail to prevent the crime, but in fact there is no way they would EVER be able to. Unless they have the ability to find proof of intent  before hand or something. They wouldn't be able to investigate the murder before it happened because crucial convicting evidence like weapons, motives, autopsies, and other things wouldn't exist before the person in question is dead.

 

As a suggestion, this could be a crushing moment of sadness in the story, where they team realizes that with the murder diary they are cursed with only knowing. Never able to save anyone with their knowledge because no one believes them and they are powerless to stop the killer until they become a 'killer'.

 

3) Class investigations: These would be useless in relation to time. I might be able to accept a special class being two or three hours long, like a tech class, but even that time is meaningless to any form of realistic investigation. Investigating, piecing together evidence, interviewing suspects takes hours. One class session, even a very very long one, would in no way allow a person to solve a crime or make any useful progress in that window. If they are in school you have to consider they have other studies too. My assumption for this would be either they go to crime scenes over several days (most criminal cases do take a long time to resolve) or they do this outside of class as an extracurricular activity (like they learn about tools and criminal psyche in campus class, and investigate the crime in field class).

 

4) Teacher gives magic book to non-investigation class member and adds him to hard-to-get class: As Obrusnine, said, this is a bit extreme. The teacher would need a very good reason to somehow accept doing that. I mean, it's a book that tells you when people die. That's powerful! The teacher would have to be pretty relaxed to let that slide. It would also help justify it a bit more if the protagonist has some way to prove himself rather than 'because I have the plot device'. That just screams "I am the protagonist!"

 

5) They tell no one: I'm not criticizing, but I feel like 'because no one will believe them' is a very weak and cliche response to that. The uncaring and useless police-type is a bit overdone. If I may suggest, make it a bit more severe. Try giving them a reason why they wouldn't want to tell someone. Maybe make it have a condition. A curse or a warning. Try to be creative. You have a great start to an idea and I would certainly hope you could do better than this.

 

Here are just a few points I mentioned where earth logic does not work with your story. Given that your setting is much more severe and your mood more serious these aren't things you can just waive. Again, Earth as we know it implies a lot of heavy expectations. You've already started twisting the world to your story by creating an earth where a doom-saying diary exists. Go the next step and build your world so that the plot becomes more believable. Create an earth where your fantastic plot can occur. Don't use these cheap excuses to justify things. Your idea is too interesting to waste on that.

 

 

-If you find that you can't bear to read all that or simply get lost along the way than take away this one paragraph if anything else.

 

Alan Wake mentioned this in a pleasant way in his game. Being a good writer is about being a good liar. A story is a test of what you think you can get away with. How much you can make the audience believe what you say even if it is totally impossible.  That is what believability is. The illusion of the story. When you use earth as we know it over some other earth or alternate world then you raise the expectation. The lies get harder to make, and so does the story.

 

Try to remember that. I hope it helps you in your endeavors. Thank you for your time.

Edited November 12, 2013 by Blindga

[+ Novem 344]

You said it a lot more clearly then I could muster Blindga, thanks.

 

Sometimes I have trouble getting my ideas across, I never was good at mincing words even with my expansive vocabulary, lol

[CrowTheAlmighty 27]

Oh my god, will everyone just effing drop it already?!?!

[Bunni89 85]

We would have dropped it if you'd acted polite in the first place, instead we tried to explain things better since you seemed to misunderstand and think this was an attack on you. Seriously, just rephrasing things in a polite way would make your life much easier.

"Hey here's a criticism" "Thanks I'll keep that in mind but that isn't what I'm intending to make" "Oh okay" = conversation end

"Hey here's a criticism" "WAH SHUT UP I HATE YOU" = an argument

Don't argue with people if you don't want an argument, seriously. Nobody said you have to follow every command of your fanbase but it's just basic courtesy to respond politely to criticism, even if it's criticism that you don't agree with. People aren't criticizing you because they think you suck, but instead because they think you could improve. That's not a bad thing, even professional game developers still have room for improvement!

 

Incidentely may I add that I really loved this project, wanted to help you out, and my opinion did a 180 once I saw how you behave around people? I don't care how great your idea is, I wouldn't wanna work with someone so disrespectful.

That's my final word here, I wouldn't wanna clog up the thread. I hope this project finds success someday, I'd still love to play it.

Edited November 12, 2013 by Bunni89

[+ Novem 344]

You really shouldn't post in a feedback forum and then try to limit discussion. It's bad practice.

 

What you should really grasp is that everyone here is trying to help you. And there is no need to be so rude and narrow-minded in response to it.

 

If you didn't want people to talk about it then you shouldn't have posted this topic in the first place. Because as this is a forum you opened a topic of conversation, and that conversation is not something that you can control however you want to. A conversation is branching, where everyone expresses their opinions on the topic. We are expressing our opinions, having an honest conversation about the finer points of your idea. Meanwhile, you are sitting there, trying to get everyone to stop discussing them. Because what they are expressing are things you don't agree with. And because you can't just take the critique and think about it, not to mention responding politely to it and admitting the legitimacy of the opinions in the first place, you are lashing out for no good reason.

 

There are far more polite and courteous ways to end a conversation. When you respond so rudely, you provoke people who were just sitting here trying to help you develop your idea. Which is exactly what this forum is for.

 

But that's not the point. You shouldn't be trying to end the conversation, you should be encouraging it. You should see what people think, and using the information from how people think, you can make a better game. Become a better artist. This is called being constructive. Building up the idea to the game you want it to be from the base ideas you presented, and in the end making the best game possible. By discussing with the people who will be playing it. Taking their critiques and ideas and identifying which ones you like and which ones you don't, and why. Seeing why people like or dislike certain things. Shifting ideas you originally had to better ones.

 

Instead, you are rejecting all criticism, throwing away all of the kind and passionate help you were offered... and for what? Because you don't like their ideas? Because you can't accept that any opinion outside of your sphere of control and imagination is legitimate?

 

The world has never moved forward with that kind of thinking, only back.

 

So why don't you be more considerate of people and think before talking? Considerate of the people sitting in front of their computers, caring enough to help you make the best game possible, and caring enough to spend their time and energy to discuss any of this with you. There have been far more deserving artists then any of us without the privilege of such open discussion with such open-minded and honest people.

[Jonnie91 1,149]

Oh my god, will everyone just effing drop it already?!?!

 

If you cannot cope with constructive critique then don't ask for feedback. If you feel you were treated wrongly, you should report the post to inform the mods that there is a problem. However, constructive critique, which is what you have received does not constitute this kind of attitude and behavior.

 

I would suggest that you brush up on taking constructive criticism, otherwise it will get to the point where people will just ignore your posts.

[CrowTheAlmighty 27]

Ok, look, I'm sorry my idea isn't good! I tried, ok?? I actually tried frickin hard!

[+ Novem 344]

Ok, look, I'm sorry my idea isn't good! I tried, ok?? I actually tried frickin hard!

 

No one said your idea wasn't good. You're taking this entirely the wrong way.

 

You need to learn to understand what constructive criticism is. NOTHING, is perfect, and NOTHING is perfect to everyone. The best you can do is try to make it the best you possibly can, and you're not going to do that by shooting down ideas that aren't yours merely because they aren't yours.

 

An idea is something that needs to be developed. It's original form is not it's best form. That's what this part of the forum is for, for developing your ideas using feedback. Instead of accepting that feedback and improving upon your original design, you're acting like your idea was designed by god himself and that it is perfect the way it is.

 

It never is, and it never will be. All you can do is make it as good as possible.

 

Reiterated the same thing twice, but, eh, whatever.

[Blindga 144]

Ok, look, I'm sorry my idea isn't good! I tried, ok?? I actually tried frickin hard!

I'm sorry you feel this way. I tried so hard to help you understand more of what you were doing. You feel like I attacked you? It upsets me to hear that. But if you only push me away than what more can I do?

 

I'm sorry it ends like this. I would have liked to help but apparently I am useless to your ideals. It is regrettable.

[Tsarmina 2,612]

Okay guys...*pats air placatingly with hands* Let's drop this now. I think Crow understands, he's probably just frustrated that we're still on this...criticism-of-his-criticism-of-our-criticisms thing. 

That being said...

I am still glad you are developing this, Crow, and while it may take a while I am sure you'll find a way to set this up

[CrowTheAlmighty 27]

Okay guys...*pats air placatingly with hands* Let's drop this now. I think Crow understands, he's probably just frustrated that we're still on this...criticism-of-his-criticism-of-our-criticisms thing.

That being said...

I am still glad you are developing this, Crow, and while it may take a while I am sure you'll find a way to set this up

Probably not gonna happen... I have no help now :'(

 

I'm most likely gonna drop it anyway

[- Z - 30]

Don't give up on big ideas, especially ideas that are pretty awesome!

 

Ok, maybe this thread turned out to be something you didn't hoped for, with all the replies and such. It's sad that this entire mishap all occured due to misunderstandings. But all-n-all, the community gave their thoughts and ideas and what potentially can be a really cool game. I like this concept you brought up, and I think you should still keep making it a reality.

 

Just because no one's helping ya, doesn't mean you should give up. Heck, the sandbox-ish game I'm making is so far only me doing it. Yet, I'm still going for it! Even if it's A BIG THING TO DO, I'm still dedicated to finish it!

 

Besides, there will be others who can help on your project. Just keep asking around, and surely someone will help. The forums here is a big community, and a friendly one, at that! There be some to assist you. I would help on this, if I wasn't so busy doing other things. You got an idea, and you shouldn't give up to it. Dedication is what make games.

[Tsarmina 2,612]

Yes! -Z- is right. Don't give up Crow; you were so excited when you talked to me about this. You've got ideas, thoughts, and everything going right for you in the theory world. Don't be discouraged!

[CrowTheAlmighty 27]

Don't give up on big ideas, especially ideas that are pretty awesome!

 

Ok, maybe this thread turned out to be something you didn't hoped for, with all the replies and such. It's sad that this entire mishap all occured due to misunderstandings. But all-n-all, the community gave their thoughts and ideas and what potentially can be a really cool game. I like this concept you brought up, and I think you should still keep making it a reality.

 

Just because no one's helping ya, doesn't mean you should give up. Heck, the sandbox-ish game I'm making is so far only me doing it. Yet, I'm still going for it! Even if it's A BIG THING TO DO, I'm still dedicated to finish it!

 

Besides, there will be others who can help on your project. Just keep asking around, and surely someone will help. The forums here is a big community, and a friendly one, at that! There be some to assist you. I would help on this, if I wasn't so busy doing other things. You got an idea, and you shouldn't give up to it. Dedication is what make games.

 

I can only do so much... I'm not good with everything

[Tsarmina 2,612]

That's fine too. Nobody's perfect ^-^

[Cait 385]

I like this concept as I said. In a perfect world, you would have thought the right way, said the right things, but this isn't a perfect world. Yes, you made mistakes. I made similar mistakes in the past, but there are two things you can do. Give up or prove you saw the light. Maybe now, people's feelings are hurt, but if you keep your mind focused on your goal, while treating people with respect... They will start helping again. One is easy, but the other has a bit more work involved. If you don't fight for your dream, who will.. Maybe, I gave up too easily to as me and social are foreigners to each other. Introverted, you see. Heck, I love mystery games and have always wanted to play those law games. Don't give up.

[CrowTheAlmighty 27]

That's fine too. Nobody's perfect ^-^

Yeah... Still be nice to have a team but I'm back to square 1 now..... Well that, plus one voice actor..

[Ideduce 0]

Even though Pywright = Phoenix Wright fan game engine. I think. Ren'Py would be better suited for what you want to use for you. I know you can combine Ren'Py and RPG Maker. I'm not sure how but I think the creator of Tailor tales has done it. (Though I'm probably wrong on that) either way I think Ren'Py might be a better engine for you. Have a looksy.

[Bunni89 85]

Yeah if you want the game to be more like a visual novel then I'd reccommend Ren'Py. But in that engine you honestly need scripting knowledge to do anything except display pictures and text and move them around. If you wanna use the same gameplay style as Phoenix Wright then Pywright has everything you need! There's a shortage of original games made using that engine, rather than just "Phoenix Wright solves another case", so I figure your game would be very popular there!

However if you want more RPG-ish stuff like being able to walk around a map and gain stats and have battles, then stick with this engine. We've also got this big forum here with loads of tutorials and helpful folk! (Even if we're kinda in the pursuit of perfection and won't hesitate to suggest changes that'd improve your game)

 

Also RPGMaker comes with loads of sample maps, backgrounds, music, characters and enemies so you can make a game even if you don't have an artist team. And you can google "RPGMaker resources" to find even more stuff that artists have made and are giving out free for anyone to use! Or you can search this forum for our own sections full of that stuff!

Don't give up just because you don't have assistants, it's entirely possible to make a game all by yourself! And it seems that you'd prefer to have full creative control to make the things you wanna make, so perhaps that'd be a better way to make your game? if you have a team then that team isn't just gonna make what you tell them to make, they'll have suggestions and ideas of thier own and it'd be more like a collaboration. Whereas if you use premade resources then you don't have to answer to anyone else- though obviously if people played your game and disliked it then they're gonna tell you. Still, a game isn't necessarily lesser just because you use stock resources instead of collaborating with an artist team to make everything 100% new.

[CrowTheAlmighty 27]

Yeah if you want the game to be more like a visual novel then I'd reccommend Ren'Py. But in that engine you honestly need scripting knowledge to do anything except display pictures and text and move them around. If you wanna use the same gameplay style as Phoenix Wright then Pywright has everything you need! There's a shortage of original games made using that engine, rather than just "Phoenix Wright solves another case", so I figure your game would be very popular there!

However if you want more RPG-ish stuff like being able to walk around a map and gain stats and have battles, then stick with this engine. We've also got this big forum here with loads of tutorials and helpful folk! (Even if we're kinda in the pursuit of perfection and won't hesitate to suggest changes that'd improve your game)

 

Also RPGMaker comes with loads of sample maps, backgrounds, music, characters and enemies so you can make a game even if you don't have an artist team. And you can google "RPGMaker resources" to find even more stuff that artists have made and are giving out free for anyone to use! Or you can search this forum for our own sections full of that stuff!

Don't give up just because you don't have assistants, it's entirely possible to make a game all by yourself! And it seems that you'd prefer to have full creative control to make the things you wanna make, so perhaps that'd be a better way to make your game? if you have a team then that team isn't just gonna make what you tell them to make, they'll have suggestions and ideas of thier own and it'd be more like a collaboration. Whereas if you use premade resources then you don't have to answer to anyone else- though obviously if people played your game and disliked it then they're gonna tell you. Still, a game isn't necessarily lesser just because you use stock resources instead of collaborating with an artist team to make everything 100% new.

I'm confused .__.

[+ Novem 344]

You should really say more then that. Nobody can help you if you can't reply a bit more clearly.

 

"I'm confused" isn't enough for anyone to decipher why you're confused,

[CrowTheAlmighty 27]

You should really say more then that. Nobody can help you if you can't reply a bit more clearly.

 

"I'm confused" isn't enough for anyone to decipher why you're confused,

*points at my head* Cant. Brain doesnt let me believe it or not

[+ Novem 344]

You wrote the original post didn't you? You need to explain or we can't clarify what you're confused about. Without the ability to do that, we can't help you, xD

[- Z - 30]

I'm guessing the main thing you may be confused is what Bunni mentioned. (This is all assumption, so I apologize if this is inaccurate.)

 

Bunni mentioned that RPG maker is, well, to make RPG GAMES. Games that focus more on battles, stat growth, items, weapons, armors, and mostly story. Here in the forums we got lots of things to support the resources already available in the default system. There's extra graphics for items and environment. There's scripts to give the system of the games more variety. And there's even resources on other small features, such as Window looks, battlers, and much more. And best of all, most of these resources are waiting at the Resource Showcase, for FREE!

 

What got even me confused a bit was the new engines mentioned: Ren'py and Pywright. These sounds like the engines you can use to make this idea of yours an easier reality. I can't say much about these, but you can check them out for yourself and see if these engines are what you're looking for.

 

Also, Bunni mentioned that your games sounds like something you want to do on your own, which has its perks and con.

 

All - and - all, It sounds like you're at a mind block. You're confused or lost and are not sure why. This happens, when we just can't plan something and our thought process comes at a complete stop. Don't worry about it. It'll go away. It happens to the best of us.

 

Just remember this. 

 

Don't give up just because you don't have assistants, it's entirely possible to make a game all by yourself! 

-Bunni89

Again, dedication is what make games. Just keep on going, or keep on asking for assistance. Both will take you the next step forward into your Murder Diary.