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Lyson

Top five mistakes you see in games?

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I saw this on another forum, and there were a lot of really good replies. Let's see what you think:

 

 

(1) Inconsistency in Game Theme

 

Unlock some people, I'm perfectly fine seeing/experiencing a cliched story. Some of my favorite RPGs of all time have, at their core, really simple stories with every cliched character archetype making at least one appearance. I can accept that in, say, a game like Grandia, but if a game like Final Fantasy 12 tried to pull that stunt, I'd have some serious issues with it. The difference? The theme of the game. As soon as I start up Grandia, I'm put in the hands of a teenage boy playing make-believe in a city square. It's going to be a light-hearted adventure, and it tells me that straight from the beginning. When I start up FF12, I'm thrust into the middle of a world filled with political espionage, power struggles, manipulation, etc. Got it, it's going to be an epic. It's not acceptable for epics to take the lazy way out and give out cliche after cliche.

 

(2) Uninspiring map design

 

I hate the default RTP. With a fiery passion. Especially in VX and VX Ace. I'm not sure I understand the decision to go from SNES era graphics of XP to NES era graphics on VX, and I've never fully recovered from it. With that being said, one of my favorite RPG Maker titles is a VX game using default RTP, Legionwood. The developer did a good job with what he had available to use. He was inspired, and it shows.

 

(3) Lack of character motivation

 

"Jack joins your party!" Why? Is Jack just that kind-hearted of an individual that he felt empathy for you and your quest to recover the four magic jewel shards from the Evil Overlord's Keep and decided to just drastically change his entire life to join you on your adventure? If your game features more than one protagonist, they need just as much character development as your main hero. Maybe the Evil Overlord killed Jack's father years ago, and he swore to someday take revenge. Hearing about your cause, he jumps at the opportunity to enact it. Hell, he doesn't even care about the jewel shards, he just wants to see he blade drip with blood of the overlord.

 

(4) Forced or unrealistic conversation

 

A problem a see plaguing many amateur games, and likely the result of solo development. Each character should have their own personalities, which need to be reflected in the script. Is your hero a cocky son of a gun? Have your script show it. Is the princess delicate, innocent and naive? Again, prove that to me in the script. Conversations between characters, and characters and NPCs, should reflect their personalities:

 

Jack - "Hah! You and every other Overlord think exactly the same! You think you can take over the world?! Not on my watch!"

Jill - "But, Jack, we just can't...kill him...can we? I've never killed someone before..."

Evil Overlord - *belches*

 

(5) Lack of effort

 

I can forgive a lot in a game; default RTP, unrealistic characters, forced dialogue...as long as the developer shows me that he was devoted to his project. To me, when you sit down and get serious and decide "okay, I'm going to make a game", I want to know that the end product is your baby. You poured your heart and soul into it. Because otherwise, why waste my time? Better yet, why waste yours?

 

 

 

And there you go, there are my list of my frequently seen Top (5) Five mistakes. What are yours?

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Point 3 and 4 were the most endearing to me. If I may expand upon them?

 

(3) Lack of character motivation

Designing characters with their own goals and ambitions and not just followers of the main character's goals and ambitions is SO IMPORTANT. How do you even begin to make realistic conversation without this first taken care of? Does it seem real when characters argue, cry and clash with each other if they don't have their own aspirations for being along for the ride? Does it seem real when characters band together for a common goal, or sacrifice if they don't have their own aspirations? No. It's so critical.

 

(4) Forced or unrealistic conversation

If you're not good at writing dialogue, you don't actually need to be, as long as your character's aren't robots. Start with an idea for a convo, what's the end result? Do the characters have a dispute about a particular path to take? Then think about what each character would think within their mind, and reflect it by what they say. Start off with one line, and make another character respond. If the dialogue makes sense, it doesn't have to have amazing metaphors and beautiful words inside.

 

Although it's always a plus, unless the character is a poor, uneducated mongrel. Right? Stay true to the character when writing dialogue. Don't just write dialogue of convenience.

Edited by Plagues

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1) Spelling errors, and lack of command of the English language

 

ex. there when you mean their, your when you mean you're and vice versa

 

2) No originality - sheer laziness

 

ex. As you stated I love cliche things! But pure laziness with big empty maps that fill the screen and are so underdone. Yes I know you stated it, but I think you can lump all of what you stated into sheer laziness and rushing to get a final product whether than giving your all into the entire thing.

 

3) Telliing through text when you should be showing

 

Aveyond is a good example of this, while a good game, "And the trader threw her into the sack" and "He made her life a living hell" and there is nothing showing any of this. I guess this goes with laziness, however, it also means that you haven't studied RPG Maker enough to know how. I see this theme over and over and if I want to read a book I will go read a book. I can understand saying how the character feels, but show the action don't talk about it! - also misusing animations

 

4) Misusing scripts without fully understanding them

 

This makes me madder than improper mapping. If you don't know how to use a script, don't use it. It is like oversalting your food, it ruins the game, especially if there is an error and you are so ignorant as to compress game data with all your borrowed art and scripts, you aren't impressing anyone with your ability to steal scripts...

 

5) Complete lack of emotion - uninspired projects

 

I don't mind playing someone else's playground, just don't pass it off as a completed game. Lined up NPCs, bosses in oddest places, just everything sort of just thrown together. It becomes very old after a while. When in doubt, don't release. If you cannot follow your own story a month later, then don't release it ugh...

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(3) Lack of character motivation

"Jack joins your party!" Why? Is Jack just that kind-hearted of an individual that he felt empathy for you and your quest to recover the four magic jewel shards from the Evil Overlord's Keep and decided to just drastically change his entire life to join you on your adventure? If your game features more than one protagonist, they need just as much character development as your main hero. Maybe the Evil Overlord killed Jack's father years ago, and he swore to someday take revenge. Hearing about your cause, he jumps at the opportunity to enact it. Hell, he doesn't even care about the jewel shards, he just wants to see he blade drip with blood of the overlord.

 

Also, sometimes its better to have a potential party member with something that ties them down and keeps them away from a life of adventure when the party first meets him or her. There's nothing wrong with an episodic adventure building up to a new sword arm in the party. Its a good chance to establish that character well right off the bat. So maybe while "Jack" has the motivation to plunge his blade into the beating heart of the evil overlord, he currently has his own more immediate battle to worry about. Defeating the overlord is an unrealistic dream that he is beginning to loose hope on since he can't even get his revenge on a mercenary leader who's band has been occupying his home town and exploiting their resources. When the party first meets him, he really doesn't have any desire to travel with them, and looks at professional adventurers as nothing more than common greedy sellswords who plunder tombs and loot treasures from monster hoards. In other words, just a step below the mercenaries he already despises. After his mini story arc, his ties to his homeland could be absolved with a renewed opinion of adventurers, and a strengthened view of the big picture that leads him to want to travel with the main party. Now defeating the evil overlord is no longer just a dream, but it has transitioned into his primary goal.

 

This in my opinion makes the arrival of a new party member feel more fulfilling than a single cut scene where the party meets Jack and he explains to them his motivation for revenge, then jumps into the party's formation ready to die at their side. Because now I feel like I have EARNED a new ally.

Edited by Chocopyro

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No offense, but one of my big ones is pretentious, uninspired titles. Kinda like "Whispers of Eternity". Again, no offense.

 

They're meant to sound evocative and interesting, hinting at grandeur and scale and whatever but they almost always come across like something completely disconnected from whatever story they're actually telling because they came up with the title first. Then again, titling is an art and there seem to be very few masters. Most RPG titles sound hopelessly generic and worse, are empty of all tangible emaning.

 

In your case, Lyson, maybe your title connects reasonably to the content of your project and therefore only sounds generic as all get out.

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*Hello im new and this is my first post*

 

Yeah Characters who randomly join you and don't have much of a story to them is kinda pointless.

 

Ally: Im going to join you!

Hero: What? I don't even know you and why?

and the Ally's respones would be somthing like

"Becasue I have to do this" "It's my destiny" "The sound of adventure is right up my street" they will come up with some werid stuff just to join you.

 

I did feel that in Final Fantasy 12, some of the characters story was eh,

Edited by Chaos_Martin

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Well, if my title came off as pretentious, I apologize. I assure you that wasn't the intent. I am curious as to what you look for in a title, though.

 

Not singling anyone out in particular, but just look through any project development thread on any RPG Maker forum and you'll see multitudes on uninspired titles. I can think of a handful right here on this forum.

 

Now, I can understand where you're coming from. Perfectly. Someone comes up with a really grand sounding name, throws something decent looking together in RPG Maker (enough to make a topic), and goes all "Hey, look at my topic! I'm a really good game designer!" And in most, if not all cases, that is true. I can't say that know the going success rate from project conception to completed game, but I'm willing to bet it's astronomically low.

 

I'd like to think of Project titles the same way I think of the title of any soon to be released product. You think the new Playstation 4 is going to be called "Orbis"? No, the odds are good that it's just going to be called Playstation 4.

 

The difference between Sony and us home brew game developers is that we can't say "Here's my project, 'Project 1'", or "Here's my project, 'Revolutionary'". For a good many of the RPG Maker community that just use the engine as a hobby, they don't have any financial investment in their project. Their only investment is their dedication and the interest of those whom they can sway with a really good title and a really well presented topic.

 

I might be the only one who thinks this way. Am I set on Whispers of Eternity being the final game title? Of course not. Is it tied to the story? Yes. If it would serve purpose, I can easily go back and edit my topic to say "[Project Development]Codenamed: Whispers of Eternity", but...isn't that asking a little much?

 

I suppose I'm being hypocritical for pointing out my issues about your issues in a topic that I made specifically so people can talk about their issues, but I just see things differently. I'm not saying don't look at people with glorified titles as trying to sound pretentious. I'm just saying that maybe they gave it a glorified title so that they can garner support from the community.

 

To be honest, I would think you should have more issues with titles such as "Final Fantasy VII mark 2.5: The Secret of the Ancients"

 

Just my two cents.

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I can see where your comming from. I mean Grandia, I have no idea what that means, and the title isn't somthing like Grandia and the Enternal Beating heart, It was just Grandia, but I tell you this its one of the best RPGS I have ever played and thats why I brought it on PSN. But yeah I agree and can see most people using it as hobby to past time. I used to be like that, make a project, good story with it but the only thing what stoped me was motivation. Im planning on getting a little team together so we can all make a project and make a little pocket money on the side. But of course that dosn't mean I can go left right and center taking resources and scripts to make my own game and thinking that would be handy dory. At the moment Iv asked Victor Sant to see if I can use he's battle script for my comercial game.

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Your post seems to me to be more disparaging and negative than I believe that you intend.

It’s not fair to say "why waste my time? Better yet, why waste yours?"

 

Game developers make games to sell and therefore they are making a game for you the consumer but a hobbyist is making a game for themselves and then sharing it.

If the hobbyist enjoyed to process of creation then the game was a success.

 

It is good to offer advice on making a better game but never say failure is a waste of time.

 

I’ve yet to create anything that is not a mess of revisions, clichéd and has working titles that make even me wince, but out of all that I hope in time to create something truly fun to play.

 

The number one mistake in games I see is when developers give up.

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Maybe I worded it wrong, but we're saying the same thing. The point I was trying to get across is, as long as it looks like you put at least a half ass worth of effort into it, it's not a waste of time, yours or mine. This goes for both professional and home brew, but I'd have to say it rings more true for home brew developers because they're home brew developers. There isn't anyone forcing them to make a game, they're doing it because they want to. So my point stands: if you're not going to put any effort into it, why waster your time or mine. That's all I was saying.

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Argh >.< I dunno how many times I gotta say this.. but.. imho..

The whole "show it don't tell it!". The only example endafy can pull is aveyond and it told a little story inside it - so what. That's how you want to do it sometimes. It's like telling filmmakers - "Stop narrating the prologue! SHOW US!". That is to say that LOTR, Harry Potter, and several others, that have a narration that explains things in words, have 'lazy' filmmakers?

 

Of course not. Narration is still a very effective element, there is absoloutely nothing wrong with it. Please, please, please, attend a writing class before assuming that narration means the writer is lazy. >_<

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Argh >.< I dunno how many times I gotta say this.. but.. imho..

The whole "show it don't tell it!". The only example endafy can pull is aveyond and it told a little story inside it - so what. That's how you want to do it sometimes. It's like telling filmmakers - "Stop narrating the prologue! SHOW US!". That is to say that LOTR, Harry Potter, and several others, that have a narration that explains things in words, have 'lazy' filmmakers?

 

Of course not. Narration is still a very effective element, there is absoloutely nothing wrong with it. Please, please, please, attend a writing class before assuming that narration means the writer is lazy. >_<

 

Now while Narration isn't bad, it's important to think of the audience. You have to make your Narration interesting, but don't overdue it, You'll lose the reader's interest. You can't overwhelm them, or they'll tune it out. Having "show not tell" mixed in with the narration can really help, as it breaks up the monotony of it, but if you expect to just have the majority of the cutscene as narration, expect bored and inattentive players.

 

The prologues, if memory serves, mix and match the show and tell. They have a voice over talking about things while you see battles raging on and small villages of hobbits. That helps keep the interest of the audience because you're not sitting there listening to some guy droning on about the world.

 

And indeed, I have attended a Creative Writing course, very fun class. Sadly we're into poetry right now, which I don't find as interesting as the short stories. XD

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Argh >.< I dunno how many times I gotta say this.. but.. imho..

The whole "show it don't tell it!". The only example endafy can pull is aveyond and it told a little story inside it - so what. That's how you want to do it sometimes. It's like telling filmmakers - "Stop narrating the prologue! SHOW US!". That is to say that LOTR, Harry Potter, and several others, that have a narration that explains things in words, have 'lazy' filmmakers?

 

Of course not. Narration is still a very effective element, there is absoloutely nothing wrong with it. Please, please, please, attend a writing class before assuming that narration means the writer is lazy. >_<

The Elder Scrolls 1 makes very effective use of narration to immerse you in the game. Things like describing the scenery when you walk into a warm tavern in the dead of winter, or even come across an interesting landmark in a dungeon. Using scripts like Yanfly's Gab Window, its easy to do something similar for an RPGM game. And don't get me started with the persona games. Yet again, effective use of narration, sometimes right in the middle of dialogue. I have no problem with narration if it doesn't take me out of the game.

 

Though the way I interoperate "show don't tell" is when characters are interacting with one another. Lets say the king has just recently lost a wife. Your party is meeting with this king, and they don't know that as her death hasn't been released to the public yet. "Telling" in this case would be to have the king flat out tell you he's sad that his wife died. "Showing" would be if the king did his best to hide it, but you could make out some subtle hints from his choice of words that something heavy is on his mind. And he becomes defensive when certain topics are brought up. Though he tries his best to keep a strong appearance, his will is breaking down. Maybe a servant could remark that lately he has taken up to wearing darker shades of clothing, and his mind is not exactly on the topic being discussed in the courtroom. Now the party could still find out his wife, the queen died. A member of a foreign court may drop in, who happens to be family on the queen's side of the family and inquire on her failing health. Or if he had already heard the news, maybe he came to acquire an object of remembrance from her possessions. In this sense, it seems that the players are learning for themselves exactly what the king is going through by putting the pieces together rather than just being told outright.

Edited by Chocopyro

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I think if it sounds like Narration it's telling. If it sounds like dialog it's showing.

 

What I mean by that is if the King goes, "My wife, the queen of this land is now dead." It seems kinda bland.

But maybe if he were to go, "The love of my life has passed on. Please leave me so that I may grieve in peace." We get more of a feel for the character, instead of just a lifeless reply.

And also having just a "voice over" say "The Queen of the British Empire died on June 5th 1578." is straight up narration.

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It's more of a writing style issue. While I may have problems with a writer's style, I'm after the overall effect of the story for me.

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Here;s My top five:

 

 

5. Unoriginality resources

- This can only be used when it's a RPG Maker Port game, (ex. FFI RPGVX Version) or when it's a place holder.

This is actually low priority,

 

4. 8-Bit in 16, 32, bit?

- Sometimes, when I see a project's demo, I look for battle sprites. Or even Overworld sprites. If there was a 8-bit sprite sitting in a upper bit VX game, it looks out of order. Or in a battle sprite. My thoughts of this, it's low priority.

 

3. Cliche elements of characters

Example:

Mercenary Yukita, she is a triplet, and has 2 "younger" sisters. Has a Mysterious brother who has gone missing.

Expanded (Sort of):

Mercenary Yukita Sanada, She's the "Eldest" sister of the Sanada Triplets. She's also has an older brother who has disappeared into mysterious means, known as codename "Overtime" by her sources. She aspirates to go back into Idol-ing.

 

2. Incomplete of Moving during Events

- I do this problem also, it's an "oh crap, I Effed up" moment, as moving during events is quite hard...

Since most of the time, You can think adding a funny background event (ex. Overworld sprite battle) makes people look at you that you're good in mapping and event. Although please don't error and make the PC stuck in a wall or talking to a wall while supposed to look towards to the Anti-hero.

 

1. Uncredited

- Sometimes, I get on discarded projects for lols. most of them does not have any credits. What I meant is, Credits where you used... like that Omega Weapon from FFVII; or that FFV Boss Battle Arranged remix from youtube. Or that script you used to add the Boss shattering encounter effect. Is this common to you, or it's just me who are playtesting several games?

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Well, if my title came off as pretentious, I apologize. I assure you that wasn't the intent. I am curious as to what you look for in a title, though.

 

Not singling anyone out in particular, but just look through any project development thread on any RPG Maker forum and you'll see multitudes on uninspired titles. I can think of a handful right here on this forum.

 

Now, I can understand where you're coming from. Perfectly. Someone comes up with a really grand sounding name, throws something decent looking together in RPG Maker (enough to make a topic), and goes all "Hey, look at my topic! I'm a really good game designer!" And in most, if not all cases, that is true. I can't say that know the going success rate from project conception to completed game, but I'm willing to bet it's astronomically low.

 

I'd like to think of Project titles the same way I think of the title of any soon to be released product. You think the new Playstation 4 is going to be called "Orbis"? No, the odds are good that it's just going to be called Playstation 4.

 

The difference between Sony and us home brew game developers is that we can't say "Here's my project, 'Project 1'", or "Here's my project, 'Revolutionary'". For a good many of the RPG Maker community that just use the engine as a hobby, they don't have any financial investment in their project. Their only investment is their dedication and the interest of those whom they can sway with a really good title and a really well presented topic.

 

I might be the only one who thinks this way. Am I set on Whispers of Eternity being the final game title? Of course not. Is it tied to the story? Yes. If it would serve purpose, I can easily go back and edit my topic to say "[Project Development]Codenamed: Whispers of Eternity", but...isn't that asking a little much?

 

I suppose I'm being hypocritical for pointing out my issues about your issues in a topic that I made specifically so people can talk about their issues, but I just see things differently. I'm not saying don't look at people with glorified titles as trying to sound pretentious. I'm just saying that maybe they gave it a glorified title so that they can garner support from the community.

 

To be honest, I would think you should have more issues with titles such as "Final Fantasy VII mark 2.5: The Secret of the Ancients"

 

Just my two cents.

 

Hey, you don't have to apologize to me. I just figured you might appreciate the irony of having started this thread only to get pot-shotted over something that bugs someone else. I fully understand and acknowledge that your shitty title might be temporary or not so shitty if considered outside of my relatiely context-free point of view. :P

 

And yes, I agree that uninspired terrible titles are all over RM projects everywhere. One of the reasons I think it fits the criteria of this thread. Yours is certainly not the worst. And yeah, the titles S-E give their games now are the height of bad.

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...If we're just talking about games in GENERAL, I hate not being able to see my costumes, or not being able to have a back button. Like in Tekken 6. You can create costumes, but I never know what button to press... -_- And also, once you select it, I don't think you go back and change it...

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Not sure if you mean this specifically for RPGM games or in general, but..

 

5. Unintersting Battles

More often than not you spend alot of time in RPGs in combat. I personally don't play to "maximize my character to the fullest" but if you're going to make me fight for hours of my life, make it interesting. Give the system some flavor and let me see a real difference between how different characters affect the battles. At the very least don't make super annoying monsters...like malboros...

 

4. Lazy Environment Design

Kind of goes along with your map design comments, but yea...environment is your setting (obviously). Its the first thing you take note of and its sets the tone for what to expect going forward. If everything in the world looks generic and uninspired, then the game probably is too.

 

3. Bad Voice Acting

Ugh. Simply ugh. If you don't believe me, go watch In the Name of the King, possibly Uwe Boll's "finest" work. Not a game, but I think it makes my point B)

 

2. Unmotivated and Disjointed Stories

Wait...I just crossed the desert to get to this town, and now I have to go into the mountains to rescue some villager? Why? The story should be designed in such a way that you should WANT to go save that villager! Maybe she's wealthy. Maybe she's a friend. Maybe she's hot. Whatever the case may be, a great game isn't about jumping from quest to quest, but rather about accomplishing a goal that you and the character you play actually care about...

 

1. Poor Character Design

I originally put this as my #2, but the more I wrote the more I realized it is by far the thing that ruins a game for me. You could have amazing music and stunning visual effects, but without great character design you're left with alot of work and little reward. Characters are literally the driving force behind any good story. Without them, you're left standing and thinking "why sould I care?" Some of the classic RPGs had terrible graphics by today's standards, yet stay amazing because you care about their characters (of course a little nostalgia playing old games doesn't hurt either).

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I'll put sauteed, no rating from 1 to 5 of the most important to least , sauteed:

 

1.-The attitude: It's one thing I do not usually see much of this forum, but elsewhere other. People do super fast games, with the objetive to have one, with thousands of RTP graphics and cliches, then go to chat and discuss all their friends of his game, so again and again, and I've seen thus decline to many forums.

 

2.-The Graphics: If RTP is not used, will be used Mack tiles and characters, and in the rare cases: "Coming of Age Day to" or Celliana or Lunarea. Nothing of originality? And you will tell me some "... you talk like that because you are a graphic designer ... blablablabla" My response: "I am not a graphic designer, YOU are a ******* lazy!!", I have no special skill, please, I've very bad coloring xD if you compare me with the great designers I am only one poop at his side: but I strive to get my own resources, something that people have to understand that free is not good, if not, would be private, do not you think? , Have these resources are free because its creator wants it that way? the original creator wants something in return: fame. Who does not know the graphic designers who give away cute and complete free resources?

 

3.-The Story: Please, think a bit, Sephiroth was not bad for no apparent reason, there is no one who wishes evil with no reason, something like: "I will rule the world because I want." In FFVIII, Squall says a phrase that is sure to help you think "In this world there isn't good and bad guys, just allies and enemies," that is the reality, fix the story in this way, be a little creative, complex, make paradox or something xD.

 

4.-The main theme is always the same, a medieval world that has nothing to do with the medieval itself is more, people talk like in the 21st century, but what the hell is that? , Read you a little that was feudalism at least, or not, make a game in the Victorian era or perhaps old age or prehistory, why does not anyone that? the answer I said in point number 2, if no resources, no desire to think or complicated, heh ... foolish and lazy people.

 

5.-The music: Dude , I have to disable each game I play, it's horrible, they destroy my good music memories, why always you use Final Fantasy I - X OST or known RPGs? , Utilize music from RPGs that are not known or do not have much music so great, some SaGa, Dark Cloud 1-2 (Dark Chronicle), Eternal Sonata ... seek, work hard at it.

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There is nothing wrong with using the RTP, Mack, or other sources already available. Originality? That comes with game design as a whole, not what graphics you are trying to use. And to be honest, your own quote states you have no special skills at creating resources and bad at coloring. Still you insist on doing your own. In my opinion, that's a big mistake. Learn to make something special of the skill first before throwing them into a game, because I'd much rather play a game with over-used graphics (as long as the game mechanics and story works) before playing a game where the resources will make my eyes bleed, for the sake of trying to make original graphics.

 

I do agree with point number 5. Plenty of freeware music available on the internet; I've acquired a vast variety myself over last few years. If for some reason you still intend to use commercial game music, stay away from:

 

1. Final Fantasy

2. Kingdom Hearts

3. Chrono Trigger

4. Wild Arms

 

For some reason, these are the top picks when it comes to amateur game design.

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I think it could work, but it really depends on the player.

If they like hearing the nostalgia then it works, if they cringe that a game would dare to use the music of their beloved games it's going to crash and burn.

The RTP doesn't always work, and you might not be able to find someone to make music for you, personally, so long as the music fit the theme of the game, I say go for it. But if it's there just to be there, much like a cliche, it'll just cause irritation.

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