"Therapy" System

[Cecillia 652]

Cecilila | Cruel Miracle was going to contain a system where you act as a therapist for Angels which would consist of non-stop talking along with choices you can make. It is has been quite a difficult road for me and my partner. We have scrapped countless ideas and our attempts to create a good system ended in failure.

 

Originally, we were going to set up surreal art pieces where you had about 1-5 minutes to analyze and you had to interpret the piece as their "past" and try to figure it out by listening to what Cecillia analyzes. You would then go on with talking to the Angel about their life/etc then you would have choices brought up which were what Cecilila analyzed from the surreal piece. How well you remembered is what determines how well you helped the Angel.

 

This idea was scrapped due to the fact that the art pieces are extremely hard to create especially since abstract/surrealism is not in my comfort zone. (I've attempted studying them in school, and failed miserably)

 

The second idea was that we were going to turn battles into a "conversation system". There would be tons of conversations and the battles will be timed by "turns" and when Cecillia comes to a difficulty, you have to decide what kind of skill to use against the Angel such as: Argue/Question/Turn away which determines how well you would heal the Angel.

 

That idea was additionally scrapped because we didn't really know how to set up the battles correctly. Nothing was working and it was just a complete disaster.

 

I decided to post this thread because, we have been utterly brain dead on the therapy ideas and we'd appreciate your creativity on what we can do.

 

We want to avoid Fade out/Fade in as much as possible because we want to convey the struggle to overcome depression. We are not putting typical battles at all like you can slash down the enemy.

 

If I need more elaborating or if you are confused, I'll explain further. Just ask questions.

 

Thank you!

 

Basically: What should I do IN GAME to show anything. Would you event this through choice? Make a battle system into conversations? What?

[Bunni89 85]

I think that a therapy battle would be the best idea, because depression/insanity in general often feels like you're struggling underneath some sort of monsterous pressure that's forcing you to do strange things, or feel sad for seemingly no reason, etc. From my experience the worst part of it is that lack of control, and resisting against it really is like a battle! One that's nigh impossible to win without help from others.

So I dunno.. if you wanted to go for a realistic allegory then it'd be something like that. But with more of an attitude of like... not fighting against the patient, but the patient is the victim of a monster and you need to save them from it. Or both you and the patient fighting together. Some sort of representation of that "I think they're about to break through.. oh no, they had a meltdown" kind of feeling. That's the most terrifying part of trying to comfort someone- where you mess up and have to watch them slipping into an even deeper sadness. Feels like they were making progress and you accidentally stopped them and reset everything to level one

 

But using the actual battle system to do a text battle is kinda hard, so maybe do it via events instead? And make it more like... a puzzle game? Albiet one that's tense and desperate and framed as if it was a fight.

Something like... questions keep popping up and you have to pick one of three choices before a time limit runs out. So its like an ordinary visual novel except turned all actiony, and suddenly difficult because you only have a short amount of time to figure out which choice is right. And maybe wrong choices deplete a bar and then if it hits zero the patient has a meltdown and the therapy session ends.

Things are way more tense with a bar, as opposed to "one failure = game over". A bar lets you sometimes fail, so it becomes a game of desperate risk management- maybe the player gets complacent like "oh, well I can take a few hits" but then they gradually get more and more panicky. Thus, the last point on the bar will end up providing way more stress than if the bar only has one point, even though both of those situations are "in one move I might lose".

And maybe add some sort of Ace Attourney-esque "evidence" system? Except like.. instead it's an inventory of "Symptoms" and "Memories". So you have to answer questions correctly to help figure out the patient's symptoms, as well as help them remember things that might be relevant and important. And then you move on to a second stage where you try and determine the cause of the depression by linking symptoms to memories, and help the patient understand their condition and learn how to combat self-destructive thoughts.

 

Cos personally I find that's the best and most helpful part of therapy! Understanding where all these feelings come from stops me from feeling that its somehow my fault and I'm depressed because I'm being punished for being a terrible person, or whatever. And a lot of the fear of the condition comes from the fact that my emotions seem to be going mad and I don't know why- it helps me stop panicking if I can pinpoint stuff like "oh, I freaked out because I saw [triggering thing]" and then "[triggering thing] triggers me because [reason]". It becomes something that's rational and defeatable, instead of a mysterious all-powerful monster that can bend me to its will.

Instead its just a petty little bastard trying to trick me into being scared of its pathetic lies! XD

 

Another idea for how to make it more desperate and challenging- maybe mix up the types of questions? like.. start off with just situations where you have to say the right thing, but then move on to more abstract stuff like suddenly having to pick one of four emotion faces. (I think Galv made a script for that?) Cos the situation might be something where like... the patient is very desperate and the expression on your face might cause them to assume something. They're so panicky that they might go "she's laughing at me!" if you try and give a reassuring smile, or "she doesn't care!" if your face is expressionless. People think irrational things when they're pouring their heart out to someone and don't know if they can trust them...

And then maybe move onto stuff where you have to pick between several pictures, or maybe a REALLY complicated "final level" is talking to someone with a verbal tic or a strange manner of speaking, where you have to talk back to them in the same manner to make them listen, which requires you to figure out the syntax rules as you're going along. Or equally ridiculous hyper confusing things XD It can be very easy to boost the difficulty level of this minigame! XD

Or perhaps instead of just one bar, you have several bars symbolising different emotions. Like one bar for relaxed/panic, one for happy/sad and one for calm/angry. So you have to answer correctly to manage all three bars and make sure none of them hit the peak. And maybe to complicate things, sometimes you need to make the bar go somewhat negative in order to unlock a memory. Like.. maybe a character's problem is that they refuse to get angry at their abusive father and keep blaming themself instead. In that situation, raising the anger bar would actually have a positive effect. (Same for stuff like letting out the grief, or aknowledging a bottled up fear that they try to deny..)

 

Basically this idea is awesome and has so much potential! I really love it! Your stuff is so creative!

I hope some of this comment maybe helped?

[Allen Leighton 84]

I think that a therapy battle would be the best idea, because depression/insanity in general often feels like you're struggling underneath some sort of monsterous pressure that's forcing you to do strange things, or feel sad for seemingly no reason, etc. From my experience the worst part of it is that lack of control, and resisting against it really is like a battle! One that's nigh impossible to win without help from others.

So I dunno.. if you wanted to go for a realistic allegory then it'd be something like that. But with more of an attitude of like... not fighting against the patient, but the patient is the victim of a monster and you need to save them from it. Or both you and the patient fighting together. Some sort of representation of that "I think they're about to break through.. oh no, they had a meltdown" kind of feeling. That's the most terrifying part of trying to comfort someone- where you mess up and have to watch them slipping into an even deeper sadness. Feels like they were making progress and you accidentally stopped them and reset everything to level one

 

A lot in our game involves loneliness and how not everyone has someone they can stand by or even feel that they can ever trust anyone. Although that is a good suggestion, it doesn't quite fit for what we need. There are external threats, but not to the Angels themselves. The "threats" are actually their own personal defense system and we won't be fighting them. The goal is to reach the inner heart of the Angel somehow.

 

However, I believe your other ideas are worth looking into.

[Cecillia 652]

I don't think I elaborated enough, but I want to stay away from the battle system entirely unless I can convert it into a form of conversation/debate. I really don't want people thinking that cutting down enemies will solve depression, but I'll explain further with our story to help more with the creativity.

 

The afterlife didn't exist, and the only way to access it is to become an Angel (Beings who have been driven into depression and are literally trapped in a cryptic landscape of their paranoia/depression called Dystopia)

 

This is where the beings named La Pucelle and The Suitor come along. To be a La Pucelle, you have to me empathetic and the Suitor pretty much doesn't give a damn about anything and can carry the burden of depression.

 

In the Dystopias, there are monsters called "Griefs" who basically are an allegory/symbolize thoughts of the Angel's struggles for example: I am scared of my sexuality, I don't want you to look at me, etc. The suitor is in charge of taking those down so that La Pucelle can reach the Angel (There won't be any battles on this)

 

Once La Pucelle reaches the Angel, she takes their soul to a town in the afterlife called "Anathema" where they can live in a utopia. But solving depression isn't that easy. She visits the Angel once a day (or however you want to do it) to help them with their depression through talking/therapy.

 

That is pretty much what it is. Hope it helps. We just don't know how to make the therapy like engaging? in a sense? I wanted to make the therapy more fun instead of just talking, but add more choices etc, but I'm not sure what to do.

[Bunni89 85]

Ah, I just assumed it was from a sense of "Cecilia has to help them" considering how it was explained. My mistake!

I can definately understand the feeling that you can't trust anyone

So maybe instead it should be framed like.. the Angels themselves have to fight against their problems? Or indeed going with a literal version of fighting your way to the inner heart of the angel.

Like, you "battle" against something like... "Ideals". Or a better name lol XD But it'd be like physical representations of misconceptions, feelings, and generally things that're the core of the Angel's problems. Kinda like Psyche Locks in Ace Attourney, but manifested as monsters.

That'd work as a way to have therapy combat without looking like you're beating up a patient til they have an epiphany XD It'd be like the Angel's feelings come to life against their will, and become obstacles in the way of your goal. So it can be a battle system without separating the problem from the source.

And maybe the monsters transform as the therapy goes on? Like, you're fighting Pride and then it reveals its true form as Insecurity because that's the root of why the Angel acts that way. (Being outwardly egotistical and selfish because actually they don't have any self confidence and they want to push people away) And then maybe the resolution has the creature becoming some sort of benign spirit after its defeated, like Insecurity -> Humble.

Just random ideas lol XD

 

Anyway, I'm sure I'll find this system amazing no matter how it functions in the final game I'd just be happy to see such an amazing idea! It sounds equal parts fun and terrifying!

 

EDIT: lol, Cecilia posted at the same time as me and now my comment is practically worthless XD So you were already doing an idea of depression monsters? XD Guess great minds think alike!

Edited April 10, 2014 by Bunni89

[Cecillia 652]

I posted above your post about the griefs/etc, but we aren't putting battles at all. We have tons of allegories/symbolism within the Dystopias and the Angel's themselves.

[Bunni89 85]

Ah, I see! I was just assuming that since Cruel Miracle is generally adult rated and sometimes terrifying, then the therapy system would be all high stakes and played for scare value. Do you mean that it's gonna be more like an uplifting system instead? (Emphasis on helping the Angels, rather than "gosh, depression is really terrible"?)

That actually sounds even cooler! Reminds me of the mind-diving system in Ar Tonelico, though that was strangely played for fanservice XD (Please don't do that! Don't turn mental illness therapy into nothing more than a method to unlock sexy dresses! XD The sequels to that game were really cruddy...)

[Cecillia 652]

Ah, I see! I was just assuming that since Cruel Miracle is generally adult rated and sometimes terrifying, then the therapy system would be all high stakes and played for scare value. Do you mean that it's gonna be more like an uplifting system instead? (Emphasis on helping the Angels, rather than "gosh, depression is really terrible"?)

That actually sounds even cooler! Reminds me of the mind-diving system in Ar Tonelico, though that was strangely played for fanservice XD (Please don't do that! Don't turn mental illness therapy into nothing more than a method to unlock sexy dresses! XD The sequels to that game were really cruddy...)

It's adult rated due to the content, but it's still a romance game with manservice! But yes, the Angel system is going to be a uplifting system. I want it to like show how much help a person can give to another like, it's better than standing in the shadows watching someone suffer in a sense. This game is meant for empathetic people who can understand and sympathize, not people who are judgemental and rude (I won't offer the game to them at all). This game MAKES you look into every single character. You can't understand them playing the game just once. They are like real people.

 

But excuse me for going off topic, but no we will NOT put fanservice like that. We have some form of "fanservice" but it isn't like that.

[Bunni89 85]

Haha, that's what I meant, lol! Fanservice (and manservice XD) isn't a bad thing, sorry I phrased that badly! I just meant like.. there's a time and place for it XD

In Ar Tonelico it happened at the exact wrong time and ruined a moment that could have otherwise been genuinely emotional. *sigh* If a game is gonna have fanservice then put it during a fun and silly moment, not during someone's super serious therapy session! XD

Fanservice has gotten such a bad rep because many games don't understand how to do it right, its such a shame

 

The system sounds way more awesome than I imagined! o.O Man, I'm chomping at the bit to play this game now XD

Sorry about that, I guess since I suffer from depression my mind likes to immediately make the jump to "depression is a terrifying monster that's only suitable for a horror sequence". Man, I'm pessimistic! I feel kinda embarrassed that the idea of kind and helpful therapy didn't even cross my mind and instead I thought about all the most stressful sessions I've had...

I think if you can pull this off then the game won't just be good, it'll also be a great learning experience for the player to help them regain their faith in humanity It sounds really motivational, especially if the dialogue is gonna be as good as that lil description you gave! XD

You sound like a person who can really write a motivational speech, whoa o.O I feel cheered up already! XD

 

As for ideas... all my brain keeps coming back to is the idea of the Ace Attourney evidence system. I think that might actually work a lot better for a calm and kind system, since it can frustrate the player if they have to make desperate decisions and keep failing. (I know I've wanted to throw my DS against the wall when I failed the final case of the game with just one round to go XD) So just do the same kind of thing but remove the time limits on the choices, since that'd create a tense atmosphere. Instead maybe just stick with the bar that fills up if you pick the wrong answer, that way its possible to fail but its less terrifying. (And maybe make failure just mean you have to repeat the stage, rather than "game over, their life is forever ruined and they will never get over their depression")

 

So yeah, find "clues" by filling up an inventory with Symptoms and Memories, and then once you found them all you can start to combine them together to solve the "mystery" of the depression.

It would be like slowly pieceing together a puzzle, and it'd definately feel like the Angel was helping themself to escape depression, since you'd just be taking things that already existed in their mind and putting them together in a way that strikes off an epiphany.

It'd also help to kill any potential monotony that comes from a long dialogue session. Since its a bit more active and has clear goals set- uncover all the "clues", and then figure out how to put them together. Plus the player would be getting constant small rewards as incentive to keep going- discovering each "clue" is like a mini epiphany. So it feels like you're making progress.

And that would fit well with a situation where you're doing small therapy sessions each day You wanna have the player feeling that they accomplished something that day, even if they haven't completely solved all the problems yet.

 

It'd be something like.. you complete the therapy in sessions. Like in day one you uncover "hey, this person is afraid of their sexuality", day two is like "how are they afraid, and how does it affect them?", day three is "why do they feel this way?", day four is "what event in their past life started the problem?" and day five is "so how do we put all this together and fix it?" Each would be like a scene of finding three to six clue pieces.

And maybe it starts off so that you're only finding symptoms, and having to piece them together to find root symptoms. Like you discover that they stutter and they mispronounce words, and then you put them together to identify a root symptom of "verbal problems". Then you put that together with them fidgeting to get "nervous tics".

And then as the therapy moves on, you start to get memories too, and you have to put the memories together to get root memories, etc. Finding the common point between memories and isolating it. Like.. having a strong bad memory of a birthday party and a horseriding session. Seemingly unrelated? But you can smash them together if you noticed that they had something in common- maybe the key point is that in both situations the character's father was there? So the clue becomes "memory of father".

And then you can move on towards putting symptoms and memories together, like perhaps you noticed that those nervous tics happen whenever the character is thinking about their father. And then you can stick together "memory of father" plus something like "flinches away from physical contact" and make a deduction that the father somehow used to punish them in a traumatic way. And then link THAT to the original memory of either the birthday party or the horseriding session, like "Now, why would he be punishing you at a time like that?" And then you manage to delve deeper and pull out a more detailed memory about how the father considered horseriding to be "gay" or forced the character to refuse a present of a sewing book because that's also "gay", and perhaps that's why they're shy about their sexuality.

And so on.

(P.S: That was just a random example, I'm sure your plot about the character with the sexuality issue is actually way more complex and less cliche XD)

 

So that's an idea. Or something. I dunno. I'm not sure if any of my random ramblings are helpful XD

[Cait 385]

The landscape should almost be a prison that they created from their pain, grief and they are broken, so to speak. I think you should have things pushing you away, but not hurting you or things you fight. Each different pain has different sort of barriers and different ways of getting past them. One of my favorite movies was a Robin Williams movie, where his character died and trying to reassure his wife that he hadn't vanished only made her depressed. She would later kill herself, but before he could get happy that she would be free of her pain he is told that people who kill themselves end up some where else. He vows to go down there and get her out. She is in hell, not because someone sent her there but it is a prison that she placed herself into. I think that just making it to the heart should be an interesting journey, too.

 

1. Hopelessness

2. Defenses to keep you away and their core safe

3. This is not only their sanctuary, but their prison.

4. They see no way to leave, change or escape.

 

Before you can truly heal or change you must know what really is the problem, which the person may not see or recognize. I suppose what you need to think could be, conflict or contest, a struggle. I don't know, but I do highly suggest watching that Robin Williams movie. It could give you a couple of ideas. I hope you understand my rambles as I sometimes go off and not have a unified thought. If this somehow help, I am glad, but more likely if not, I still suggest that movie.

[Bunni89 85]

Wow, that sounds like a great idea! It makes it more of an adventure or a story segment, rather than just a minigame. Plus I love the idea of hell being a prison made of your own worries and insecurities! What's the name of this movie?

[Cait 385]

The movie is called "What dream may come" released in 1998, but while it has heaven and hell, it isn't necessarily a Christian movie. But it is a great movie, because she needs help and he can't get her to recognize him. Nothing, he says makes her see and his choice how to solve the situation is priceless. True, it is about people who have passed, but I feel that it can give you ideas about mental prisons created to protect yourself or in a place you think you deserve. I think one of Robin Williams best movies, I think.

[Spectre 829]

Cait, that is truly a stroke of genius.

Much like a real therapy session, you can play to realism through fears and personal problems, and have them externalized through an artistic medium in order to convey how that character truly feels.

 

I was particularly interested by the phrase you mentioned, "you must know what really is the problem, which the person may not see or recognise." To me, this is the crux of most therapy sessions (from someone who's had therapy before).

To add on to Ceci's "abstract art" mechanic/allegory, you could have a convoluted or scrambled picture to show inner turmoil or grief, or have the artworks exaggerated to express the prime concerns of the individual. This way, it requires a higher degree of mental concentration to piece together the main problems the Angel faces, and lend to difficulty and memorability in gameplay.

 

For instance, you could have a rape victim struggle with identity issues, coping with returning to society and acceptance, while holding back vengeance and unbridled anger, yet not having the courage to face her own family and friends for abandoning the baby. Have all that represented in a picture (it's tough, but done right, it'll be very engaging) that shows that level of confusion and disturbance, yet remaining barely discernable.

 

As for the dialogue battles, I'm not too sure how to work through it; I believe Bunni has established it quite well with Ace Attorney.

One thing you might want to add is the element of momentum; while numerous choices that aren't so provocative set for a rather smooth conversation that gets progressively better, provoking or otherwise triggering a negative reaction from an Angel ruins it completely, and subsequent negative reactions make it exponentially worse.

 

This is to simulate the experience of real life counselling where you talk to and try to empathise and connect with the patient, but a wrong move could lead to the patient being increasingly resistant to your words and advice. This also compensates for the lack of numerically, arbitrarily calculated difficulty in your "battle mechanics" in the form of stats and damage numbers.

[+ TBWCS 953]

Hmm, I am still unclear about it. So, Therapy System as a whole is a system of options where you can choose different commands then? Are these commands directly just to use therapy to Angels etc?

[Cecillia 652]

I don't think people are getting what I am looking for, although your ideas are very interesting and appreciated, but we already have all the symbolism and allegories set up that way :X Their struggles/depression/etc all have physical forms of something in their dystopia and yeah, it's pretty much what you guys said >_<

 

To be honest, I'm not looking for "HOW" I should do the therapy. I have all the symbolism/etc complete, but the biggest question is: How should I do it in game?

Not in terms of symbolism: But more of HOW in rpg maker with eventing and or a battle system(basically convert the battle system into a conversational battle)

 

What would you guys do in this sense? I should've said that from the start x.x I wasn't expecting replies like that.

[+ Retired 274]

I always assume your game was like a visual novel, so you would go the eventing route with visual novel choices? Something like Chaos;Head for example

[Cecillia 652]

I always assume your game was like a visual novel, so you would go the eventing route with visual novel choices? Something like Chaos;Head for example

Yeah, we tried that, but we weren't sure if that part was like "boring" or something like that? Because it'd just be non-stop talking with choices, unless we should just go that route? Then use variables for how well you are doing?

[Spectre 829]

 

 

I always assume your game was like a visual novel, so you would go the eventing route with visual novel choices? Something like Chaos;Head for example

Yeah, we tried that, but we weren't sure if that part was like "boring" or something like that? Because it'd just be non-stop talking with choices, unless we should just go that route? Then use variables for how well you are doing?

Variables, events and text messages.

I'm not sure if there is a script out there that lets you change the UI so that it looks more battle-like, but it should be doable.

 

Also, events, background shaking or flashing, or adding pictures for dynamic effects (similar to Ace Attorney) could make the conversational "fight scene" much less boring.

[+ Retired 274]

Chaos;Head had a delusion trigger system which displays fantasies or horror scenes depending upon the choice chosen. Flashing the screen with vivd colours and your unique visual art could help give visual cues to the success rate for the player.

 

As for is it boring or not - as long as you find the dialogue fitting and engaging if should be fine. I don't think people playing cruel miracle would expect too much ''action'' since it seems more to be about relationships, love, conflict and more darker / mature themes. 

[Cecillia 652]

Thank you for those ideas! We actually have had Galv script us a shaking effect for text, so I think it'd be nice add-on with those background effects.

I think I'll stick to text since you are correct about our game being more of "text" than "action".

 

@Kentard We don't really need a HUD lol. We don't want it to be a battle since it's mainly an interactive visual novel.

[Shi-an 39]

The biggest problem with variables, events and text messages I feel would be repeating conversations. If you use Greater Than, Less than etc. there's a chance you have a conversation and increase variable 1, then in the next conversation you decrease it. Then when the event runs you'll get the first conversation again, which frankly is unrealistic (unless you have someone whose problem is memory loss).

 

This can be circumvented with multiple variables, but even then there's a chance a conversation will/can be repeated, which can turn the "therapy" into nothing but a trial and error mini-game.

 

The other alternative is to have a linear timeline so once you make the wrong choice you can't go back. Of course that means there has to be a possibility of never saving the Angel and dooming them to their depression. Not sure if that works for your game. Possibly you could incorporate the idea that if you end the "therapy" without saving them their soul returns from Anathema back to Dystopia, and they lose all their memories of what you did for them. This would make redoing all the conversation more realistic, and could convey the difficulty and frustration with trying to help depressed people, when something happens and makes you go back to square one. Again not sure if this would work in your game.

 

I think it would help if you gave an example of an Angel, the symbols and how they relate to their specific problem, and a couple of the choices/events you plan on incorporating into their therapy sessions.

 

Hope this is in line with the kind of comments you were looking for.

[Cecillia 652]

@Shi-An Thank you very much! Those are excellent ideas and it's probably what I will be doing with. I've decided that I'm going to use the variables/etc, but I feel like sometimes the player would be doomed by never being able to save the angel, so I'm thinking about making it a trial-and-error mini game in a sense, like let's say the choices are: Yes and No. If you choose No, then Cecillia will think: No, balbalablablabal, then her sanity will lower and or something else will happen.