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richter_h

Revival spell: How much do you demand it?

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One night, I stumbled upon the local forum where I came from, and someone asked me a question about my project (and he's tester of my game project, so he knows most of things in the game). He asked a question that I concluded it in a sentence:

 

"Hey, richter_h, why in your game project there is only one character who can pick the KO-ed ally up?"

 

I argued that was my intention to make players to stick on recovery items (namely Tonic) rather than relying on one or two characters who can do a pick-me-up. Also, the Tonic is cheap enough to stock--50 golds per bottle--and even you got some in the beginning of the game.

In the other hand, the revival spell that character hoards costs a lot of MP, has long cooldown--you won't wait for another 8 turns before you can command that character to revive another ally again--and worth less than a tonic could do in the same way. Fair enough for ye, right?

 

But, he throwed other questions:

 

"Why don't you add another character who can revive another ally? Are you going to force the players to stock the tonics up even if he/she runs out of golds to purchase one?"

 

That follow-up questions rustled me for some reasons...

 


 

Answering the last questions, I replied that not all of the characters should have that kind of spell for their roles in battle will be different each other and depends on situations, also the revival spell in early stage and levels isn't that worthy than a 50 golds worth of a Tonic

 

Also, in addition of this seems-like-an-unfair condition, I've spreaded Elixirs across the dungeons to maintain the party's health and of course it depends on the player's playstyle. Not to mention that I implemented an equipment that works like Substitute Doll/Sacrificial Jizo/Aegis of Immortal/you name it--once the party member is KO-ed, he'll/she'll revived instantly with HP and MP fully restored in exchange of that mentioned equip will be vanished from his/her equip slot and party's inventory. Yet the last thing I mentioned is overlooked and most of the testers mention it as a "not worthy item",..

 


 

tl;dr how do you set the rules and maintain the revival spells in your game? 

Well, fella, let's have a discussion about this, since I need further research for this feature and I seek for the middle-way that works well and fair between the items and skills in same manner.

 

But first, let me say "Cheers~"

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For me, revival spells are one of the most important skill in a game. Since it's really important, only one or two characters should have the ability to do it to avoid spamming revives in a battle (Cooldowns and high mp cost is a good factor to avoid spamming) and as you also said, revival items are easy to get and purchase. Since you made a method that players should rely on items rather than skills in terms of revival, it results into an efficient way of making "items" important up to end game. Some games rely on items only at early to mid stages of the game and at late game they can now spam or abuse the skills since most rpg characters will now have high mp late game.

 

I like the idea that you make items useful even at late game since most of the games I see neglect this issue. ^~^ Now lemme buy a "Tonic"....

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Depending on how many characters there are, I would say to maybe give the ability to more. If you have only 4 or 5 to play with, I'd say one person having revive is enough. If there are 10+, I'd say give 2 or 3 characters the revive but mix it up a bit. Make the revival spell fit who the character is and how there other spells work.

 

Example: Paladin has revive with fast cooldown but only heals 3-5% health. Cleric/Priest has revive with slow cooldown but heals 75-100%. Blood Mage has revive that either costs the Blood Mage its life or some amount of HP.

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One use equipments are kind of ignored by players unless it's replaced by whatever you have in stock (the reverse dolls in tales of eternia worked in this manner).

 

You also have to consider when you have a stat boosting equip or a skill equipment etc, most players prefer offensive strategies unless they know it's some boss enemy.

 

I agree with HumanNinja on assigning revival skills based upon the role of the character.

 

If money becomes an issue in a RPG than it suggests an uneven difficulty spike.

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I don't know who is the tester, but I guess I know

How about adding limited use for revival spell? Say that you only could use once or twice per battle? Or, after u use the revival spell, you couldn't use in several next battle?

 

For the item, most of player I believe prefer stats boost item than revival equipment which doesn't do anything with stats. And it disappear once the actor dies makes it less useful. Why? some equip could be better to avoid death. Even hear "Offense is the best defense" ? Moreover, I prefer to rely on some revival spell or tonic than the equip

 

P.S : 

For elixirs. I usually use them if my party members are badly injured :P So I would say keep that one

We can talk more regarding you game balancing on our everyday "tavern"

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Guess I can get some interesting points here...

 

For me, revival spells are one of the most important skill in a game. Since it's really important, only one or two characters should have the ability to do it to avoid spamming revives in a battle (Cooldowns and high mp cost is a good factor to avoid spamming) and as you also said, revival items are easy to get and purchase. Since you made a method that players should rely on items rather than skills in terms of revival, it results into an efficient way of making "items" important up to end game. Some games rely on items only at early to mid stages of the game and at late game they can now spam or abuse the skills since most rpg characters will now have high mp late game.

I like the idea that you make items useful even at late game since most of the games I see neglect this issue. ^~^ Now lemme buy a "Tonic"....

 

Well, Kotori-chan, that's my way to make the items useful. Since most of the RPG games I played are broken in item management, I decided to remind the players on how important the items are, like, the revival spell isn't that worthy than a small bottle of Tonic in first levels thanks to the spell's bulky MP cost and cooldown.

As a side note, currently there is only one character who can do a pick-me-up via spell, and I regarded the spell as the last resort of item shortage, but isn't abusable. That's why the Tonic is way more efficient in most of perspectives.

 

 

Depending on how many characters there are, I would say to maybe give the ability to more. If you have only 4 or 5 to play with, I'd say one person having revive is enough. If there are 10+, I'd say give 2 or 3 characters the revive but mix it up a bit. Make the revival spell fit who the character is and how there other spells work.

 

Example: Paladin has revive with fast cooldown but only heals 3-5% health. Cleric/Priest has revive with slow cooldown but heals 75-100%. Blood Mage has revive that either costs the Blood Mage its life or some amount of HP.

 

Interesting, HumanNinja.

As I've said earlier, currenly there is only one character out of 30 who has revival spell (that blonde cleric-mage with wings. Rings any bell, TheoAllen?), primarily because most of the characters are primarily a tanker, damage-dealer and most of girls are avid spellcaster :lol: But let's see if there are characters who have revive allies via spells he/she hoards, or I reconsider the existing ones to have reviving spell in different manner and magnitude.

And for the record, aside from the MP cost and cooldown, the only reviving spell in my game recovers HP by magnitude of 20% - 100% of ally's MAXHP depends on spell's level.

 

 

One use equipments are kind of ignored by players unless it's replaced by whatever you have in stock (the reverse dolls in tales of eternia worked in this manner).

You also have to consider when you have a stat boosting equip or a skill equipment etc, most players prefer offensive strategies unless they know it's some boss enemy.

I agree with HumanNinja on assigning revival skills based upon the role of the character.

If money becomes an issue in a RPG than it suggests an uneven difficulty spike.

 

Agreed with that one, AlliedG, and somehow you remind me to the fella just below you :lol:

For that one, I've set most of the equipments to have a "Can't equip more than one" attribute, meaning the character can't wear the same equipment if he/she has equipped one. That way, the players would consider to give the previously mentioned equipments just in case of imminent death or unwilling move that causing instant KO.

Well, the Phoenix Feather, the one-use equipment in my game that revives the wearer upon death and vanished afterwards, deserves a stat boost or something like that to attract players so they use it, I think...

 

 

I don't know who is the tester, but I guess I know

How about adding limited use for revival spell? Say that you only could use once or twice per battle? Or, after u use the revival spell, you couldn't use in several next battle?

 

For the item, most of player I believe prefer stats boost item than revival equipment which doesn't do anything with stats. And it disappear once the actor dies makes it less useful. Why? some equip could be better to avoid death. Even hear "Offense is the best defense" ? Moreover, I prefer to rely on some revival spell or tonic than the equip

 

P.S : 

For elixirs. I usually use them if my party members are badly injured :P So I would say keep that one

We can talk more regarding you game balancing on our everyday "tavern"

 

The revival spell limited usage is a good idea, but in some cases that would make the spell regarded far less than the traditional Tonic brew. However, the magnitude of healing from Tonics must be scaled again so the spell will be regarded as one of the best supportive spells, yes... Interesting...

 

Well, fella, offense is the best defense... or evasion is way more better, right?

Yes, it was a heated discussion in "tavern" yesterday aside from the 'rank discrimination' that resulted in the decision of removing the Character Rank system. 

 


 

This is getting interesting. I can't conclude this matter soon but slowly I figured out the way to balance this reviving business. 

Say, is there another thing in your mind about this? Let me know.

 

Guess I'll be right back, refilling my empty mug. 

Cheers~

 

EDIT: In case of can't figure out the blonde cleric-mage with wings, here she is RVSjJIE.gif

Edited by richter_h

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I'm not sure if it's been mentioned but balancing how to revive fallen members doesn't revolve around just spells/items but also the enemies themselves. If you have enemies who do a small amount of damage then the game would be UNBALANCED if the methods of healing and revival weren't fairly restricted, with high MP costs, long cooldowns etc. Conversely if all the enemies do lots of damage then the player wants to be given lots of methods of healing and reviving so they don't lose constantly.

 

There's also the consideration of the battle system. Real time would lend itself more to having lots of characters perform white magic, because it's quicker and simpler, whilst in turn-based you're much more likely to use items because you have the TIME to choose and select the best out of 10+ different healing options. 

 

In the case of only having one character who can use revival magic, you should be looking at making the enemies not do too much damage, especially few or no one-hit KOs. Of course you could have certain enemies that have a high chance of one-hit KOs, forcing the player to adapt their strategy (tonberries from FF are an example that comes to mind).

 

Running out of gold for tonics shouldn't be a problem though as long as you make it possible to get more gold somehow. This should be fine if it's possible to go back and fight easier enemies, and there's no way to get stuck in a dungeon with no way out and no place to buy tonics.

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Wait, 50 gold per bottle? And you can stock it early-game? That sounds kind of broken. If it's like that, then having only a few characters with a revive spell is fine, or even better, don't give it to any of the characters. Since it's an item, everyone can use it, then there would be no reason at all to use revive spells (especially with the high mp cost and cooldown). Rather, it's better to have a choice like HumanNinja mentioned.

 

Unless....there's a reason the tonics are that cheap.

 

Also, this might sound weird but, does dead characters get exp when the player wins the battle? Because exp is part of the reason I revive a character, since I'm the kind of player that restarts a boss fight if one person in my party is dead and he/she doesn't get exp.

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If the items are already in abundance then it overpowers the character's revival skill anyway so that's not really an issue.

 

Although the skill should either not be there if items are so easy to come by or it should have something extra that the items don't have. Like making the character extra fast by adding more "Speed" for priority, by giving more HP back to the characters, by adding a state etc. 

 

If gold can come in at a decent rate as well then it's not a problem at all. 

 

Then again, there are a lot of factors to consider when it comes to balancing but a simple way to see if there is a gaping hole in the balance of mechanics is to think of the worst possible scenario and check whether the player has a reasonable avenue of getting out of that. This way you can patch up the gaps and have a smoother game overall.

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I'm not sure if it's been mentioned but balancing how to revive fallen members doesn't revolve around just spells/items but also the enemies themselves. If you have enemies who do a small amount of damage then the game would be UNBALANCED if the methods of healing and revival weren't fairly restricted, with high MP costs, long cooldowns etc. Conversely if all the enemies do lots of damage then the player wants to be given lots of methods of healing and reviving so they don't lose constantly.

 

There's also the consideration of the battle system. Real time would lend itself more to having lots of characters perform white magic, because it's quicker and simpler, whilst in turn-based you're much more likely to use items because you have the TIME to choose and select the best out of 10+ different healing options. 

 

In the case of only having one character who can use revival magic, you should be looking at making the enemies not do too much damage, especially few or no one-hit KOs. Of course you could have certain enemies that have a high chance of one-hit KOs, forcing the player to adapt their strategy (tonberries from FF are an example that comes to mind).

 

Running out of gold for tonics shouldn't be a problem though as long as you make it possible to get more gold somehow. This should be fine if it's possible to go back and fight easier enemies, and there's no way to get stuck in a dungeon with no way out and no place to buy tonics.

 

Ah, the enemies...

Well, in my game project, the enemies wouldn't deal high damage but it depends on how the player manage his/her party, and how well he/she in timed-hit system, the key feature of the battle. Currently, only a few enemies that capable to deal massive damage and it's a rare occasion to encounter them in random fights. 

 

Also after a long run of test, the game's difficulty has been greatly aligned to prevent the notorious one-hit-KO especially for characters with low endurance. That way, players still need Tonics aside from the revival spell that for now is only available in a character, as I've mentioned before.

 

And to cover the gold issues, the first dungeon I've designed is more likely a training ground with easy enemies to encounter. Even the golds produced in each encounter isn't that many, most of testers found the place is suitable for leveling up other characters that they unlocked later besides of their main party.

 

For your record, I implemented the Action Cost Card system similar to Mana Khemia, which alters the flow of usual turn-based system.

 

 

Wait, 50 gold per bottle? And you can stock it early-game? That sounds kind of broken. If it's like that, then having only a few characters with a revive spell is fine, or even better, don't give it to any of the characters. Since it's an item, everyone can use it, then there would be no reason at all to use revive spells (especially with the high mp cost and cooldown). Rather, it's better to have a choice like HumanNinja mentioned.

 

Unless....there's a reason the tonics are that cheap.

 

Also, this might sound weird but, does dead characters get exp when the player wins the battle? Because exp is part of the reason I revive a character, since I'm the kind of player that restarts a boss fight if one person in my party is dead and he/she doesn't get exp.

 

Pardon me to not mentioning the reason why the Tonic is that cheap.

In first place, it's 100 golds per bottle and in the proposal, Tonic's price is decreased into 50 golds for some reasons. The 50 golds per bottle isn't final since I'm still figuring the major points of the battle and how players play the game.
In addition, each of the enemies holds not more than 10 golds. To amass 500 golds in the game takes more than an hour of 'farming' as most of the testers reported.
 
For the experience points, sadly the dead characters won't get experience if the player wins the battle. The experience points gained by the player will be splitted into how much the party member survived, meaning if player gets 40 EXP and there are three alive and one downed characters, the EXP will be splitted by three instead of four.
 
 

If the items are already in abundance then it overpowers the character's revival skill anyway so that's not really an issue.

 

Although the skill should either not be there if items are so easy to come by or it should have something extra that the items don't have. Like making the character extra fast by adding more "Speed" for priority, by giving more HP back to the characters, by adding a state etc. 

 

If gold can come in at a decent rate as well then it's not a problem at all. 

 

Then again, there are a lot of factors to consider when it comes to balancing but a simple way to see if there is a gaping hole in the balance of mechanics is to think of the worst possible scenario and check whether the player has a reasonable avenue of getting out of that. This way you can patch up the gaps and have a smoother game overall.

 

There are some considerations about this Tonic matter, and one of them are:

The amount of Tonic in my game project is limited by inventory size, meaning the player can't simply take 99 bottles of Tonic into the battle. Also, unlike the only revival spell introduced in the game that its HP healing rate can be upgraded up to 100%, Tonic only recovers in fixed amount (50%) of downed ally's MAXHP and the only place where you can restock them is the town, which takes more resource to get back safely (the best known way to go back to the town is by using Town Portal tickets, which costs 15 golds each).

 

The adding a state for a revival spell is neat, though. I'll note that for the spell's rework so when it's released here this problem won't occur.

 

About golds, as long as the player maintains the way to earn his/her keeps, the golds won't be a major problem. The first dungeon provides easy golds... at cost of a small drops of sweat. :lol:

 


 

'Kay, this is more interesting than I expected. Of course, if you have an opinion about this reviving business, I'm all ears. 

Cheers~

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There are some considerations about this Tonic matter, and one of them are:

The amount of Tonic in my game project is limited by inventory size, meaning the player can't simply take 99 bottles of Tonic into the battle. Also, unlike the only revival spell introduced in the game that its HP healing rate can be upgraded up to 100%, Tonic only recovers in fixed amount (50%) of downed ally's MAXHP and the only place where you can restock them is the town, which takes more resource to get back safely (the best known way to go back to the town is by using Town Portal tickets, which costs 15 golds each).

 

The adding a state for a revival spell is neat, though. I'll note that for the spell's rework so when it's released here this problem won't occur.

 

About golds, as long as the player maintains the way to earn his/her keeps, the golds won't be a major problem. The first dungeon provides easy golds... at cost of a small drops of sweat. :lol:

 

 

'Kay, this is more interesting than I expected. Of course, if you have an opinion about this reviving business, I'm all ears. 

Cheers~

 

 

If Tonics are limited (which is a good idea so long as it's not too low) and getting more is easy enough then you're good to go. The revival spell seems to have the potential of being better than the Tonics so I guess it serves as an interesting alternative after all. But making it a little more special would be even better.

 

Make sure that the difficulty curve isn't too spiky though or it may throw people off despite the fact that going back to town may be easy. This combined with a limit that doesn't feel too low should work nicely. 

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Hmmm...

 

Well, in my game everyone can potentially use any spell including revive, but if they don't specialize in it properly, there's a chance it could fail.

That, paired up with the relatively high MP cost makes it a bit of a last resort.

I do have KO healing items, but they are some of the most expensive and rare healing items in my game.

 

Also note, KO'd actors heal after a battle.

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Being able to purchase revival items creates a huge uneven difficulty curve... as mentioned earlier.

 

When developers create their games and make potions 50 gold and your "phoenix down" 500 gold, that kind of scaling will work until about 1/4 of the way in. At that point, it becomes ridiculously easy to just fill up to the max with them whenever you get to a shop. 

 

In my opinion the best way to handle revival items is to not put them in stores, but you should put a "church" or something in towns that revives your allies. Or have the Inn do that. Then, you put a lot of random treasures to find in dungeons that give revival items. So the items technically become just as "easy to access". You won't have the issue of having only two revive items for five hours in the game, where the difficulty curve evens out. However they are still forced to think about their strategy because they can't just "buy more revives".

 

This would also reward the player for exploring, and not frustrate them early game when the "phoenix down" is 500 gold and everything else in stores cost less than 30 gold.

 

Edit: Oops, forgot about the revival spells.

I believe that in battles, you have to firmly define every character's roles. So in my opinion, only classes like the "priest", "monk", "paladin", or "necromancer" should be able to revive allies with magic.

Edited by Anderson88

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There are some considerations about this Tonic matter, and one of them are:

The amount of Tonic in my game project is limited by inventory size, meaning the player can't simply take 99 bottles of Tonic into the battle. Also, unlike the only revival spell introduced in the game that its HP healing rate can be upgraded up to 100%, Tonic only recovers in fixed amount (50%) of downed ally's MAXHP and the only place where you can restock them is the town, which takes more resource to get back safely (the best known way to go back to the town is by using Town Portal tickets, which costs 15 golds each).

 

The adding a state for a revival spell is neat, though. I'll note that for the spell's rework so when it's released here this problem won't occur.

 

About golds, as long as the player maintains the way to earn his/her keeps, the golds won't be a major problem. The first dungeon provides easy golds... at cost of a small drops of sweat. :lol:

 

 

'Kay, this is more interesting than I expected. Of course, if you have an opinion about this reviving business, I'm all ears. 

Cheers~

 

 

If Tonics are limited (which is a good idea so long as it's not too low) and getting more is easy enough then you're good to go. The revival spell seems to have the potential of being better than the Tonics so I guess it serves as an interesting alternative after all. But making it a little more special would be even better.

 

Make sure that the difficulty curve isn't too spiky though or it may throw people off despite the fact that going back to town may be easy. This combined with a limit that doesn't feel too low should work nicely. 

 

 

Then the next thing to do is the difficulty curve. Nice points, fella.

 

 

Hmmm...

 

Well, in my game everyone can potentially use any spell including revive, but if they don't specialize in it properly, there's a chance it could fail.

That, paired up with the relatively high MP cost makes it a bit of a last resort.

I do have KO healing items, but they are some of the most expensive and rare healing items in my game.

 

Also note, KO'd actors heal after a battle.

 

 

Being able to purchase revival items creates a huge uneven difficulty curve... as mentioned earlier.

 

When developers create their games and make potions 50 gold and your "phoenix down" 500 gold, that kind of scaling will work until about 1/4 of the way in. At that point, it becomes ridiculously easy to just fill up to the max with them whenever you get to a shop. 

 

In my opinion the best way to handle revival items is to not put them in stores, but you should put a "church" or something in towns that revives your allies. Or have the Inn do that. Then, you put a lot of random treasures to find in dungeons that give revival items. So the items technically become just as "easy to access". You won't have the issue of having only two revive items for five hours in the game, where the difficulty curve evens out. However they are still forced to think about their strategy because they can't just "buy more revives".

 

This would also reward the player for exploring, and not frustrate them early game when the "phoenix down" is 500 gold and everything else in stores cost less than 30 gold.

 

Edit: Oops, forgot about the revival spells.

I believe that in battles, you have to firmly define every character's roles. So in my opinion, only classes like the "priest", "monk", "paladin", or "necromancer" should be able to revive allies with magic.

 

And for your record, the healing potion costs only 10 golds when the Tonic is 50 golds each (and it was 100 golds per bottle, and I dispute the price of this tonic till now)

 

The trait of both the revival spell and Tonic is same; the character can use it and he/she can do another action to perform afterwards. Tonic itself is sold by general merchants for its frequent needs (proven in the early 1.0 development where the players demand an easier access to recovery items especially Tonic and Resurrection Scroll, the All Allies' version of Tonic) also the amount of Tonics can be carried is way more limited rather than regular potions (Healing potions has 6 max. stack per slot while Tonic only has 4 max. stack per slot)

 

And for the points Anderson88 mentioned, perhaps I'll spread Tonics along with Elixirs which may aid players better throughout the game since both of them are highly rewarded, like TheoAllen mentioned that:

 

For elixirs. I usually use them if my party members are badly injured :P So I would say keep that one

 

 

For now, the character roster are limited to Fighter - Hunter - Knight - Assassin - Spellcaster - Alchemist, and the Priests, Paladins, Necromancers and Monks are... well, rare.

 


 

Well, this discussion guides me better in balancing the overall gameplay. Thanks for your attention and opinions.

Also, if you have another thing to be mentioned or have something to say about revival spell and items, don't hesitate to post it.

 

Cheers~

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We talked about ED here? If yes, since your game has limited chance to save (need save ticket), timed hit evasion that need exercise to do it right in early game, and can't spam attacks, that one is important, at least for override a tricky boss.

 

If no, revival skill is less important, because you always can load from last save point. The revival skill only needed if I am going out far away from a town or healing point (I usually not spending much money for potion, since many games need your money to buy some other thing more useful, and I don't want to grinding for money)

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Though I think death should be meaningful, you don't necessarily have to die and become useless until you are out of the dungeon for simply losing HP. I think it should be harder to do then that, but also harder to recover from. You should be able to get KOed easily enough and recover, but have a deeper death or wounded state.

 

I kinda like the system in the SaGa series where, ANY healing skill can revive a character... but they only have a limited number of LP that is drained when they "die" (being hit while "dead" and sometimes crits will also take away LP, sometimes rare powerful skills will cost LP to use), and once that is gone it's either permadeath or at the very least you need to go to an inn (and you usually get around a average of 10 to 12 LP points max and it never levels up, also they are usually impossible to recover in dungeons). Though in the SaGa games as a consequence, party scoped healing spells are very very rare and most of them take an LP to even use.

 

Related is in Live-a-Live where I think any healing or at least most can revive, but if you are hit while dead you are removed from the battle completely until the battle is over. Also Final Fantasy Tactics where when a unit dies it has a timer, and if the unit isn't revived by the time it counts down, the unit is dead for good. Even Good old D&D you didn't actually die until your HP was well in the negative.

Edited by KilloZapit

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We talked about ED here? If yes, since your game has limited chance to save (need save ticket), timed hit evasion that need exercise to do it right in early game, and can't spam attacks, that one is important, at least for override a tricky boss.

 

If no, revival skill is less important, because you always can load from last save point. The revival skill only needed if I am going out far away from a town or healing point (I usually not spending much money for potion, since many games need your money to buy some other thing more useful, and I don't want to grinding for money)

 

Yes case:

That's why the Timed-Hit is there; to reduce the chance of getting lost a live in battle. Also, you might know about the ability to use item and still can attack enemies afterwards, right?

 

No case:

That applies on most of the RPG games I played, since equipments are far more worthy (and shiny, I'm serious) than a small bottle of Tonic. Also, 'farming' from enemies sometimes not worth the golds they produced in each battle, so in some perspective you have great points there, fella.

 

 

Though I think death should be meaningful, you don't necessarily have to die and become useless until you are out of the dungeon for simply losing HP. I think it should be harder to do then that, but also harder to recover from. You should be able to get KOed easily enough and recover, but have a deeper death or wounded state.

 

I kinda like the system in the SaGa series where, ANY healing skill can revive a character... but they only have a limited number of LP that is drained when they "die" (being hit while "dead" and sometimes crits will also take away LP, sometimes rare powerful skills will cost LP to use), and once that is gone it's either permadeath or at the very least you need to go to an inn (and you usually get around a average of 10 to 12 LP points max and it never levels up, also they are usually impossible to recover in dungeons). Though in the SaGa games as a consequence, party scoped healing spells are very very rare and most of them take an LP to even use.

 

Related is in Live-a-Live where I think any healing or at least most can revive, but if you are hit while dead you are removed from the battle completely until the battle is over. Also Final Fantasy Tactics where when a unit dies it has a timer, and if the unit isn't revived by the time it counts down, the unit is dead for good. Even Good old D&D you didn't actually die until your HP was well in the negative.

 

Death should be meaningful. I agreed.

 

The SaGa system seems interesting, and that LP system might alter the overall strategies (that Tonic and even simple healing spells won't be abusable because each characters is limited in matter of revival). Also, the rest of things you pointed are interesting and I should give it a try... in another game project, perhaps. :lol:

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Hehe, yeah I guess an LP system or other such is something you kinda need to plan everything around for it to work well, so it wouldn't really be a good idea to plop into an existing project. For example, the SaGa series tends to have you recover all or most of your HP and status after a battle, which makes a lot more sense to do if your limiting factor for a dungeon is your LP.

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