Thoughts and Opinion on Ace Attorney - Demon Hunting - Horror Game Thingy

[- Z - 30]

The title itself makes no sense, but that's what my recent RM game is, in a nutshell. 

 

It's a horror game, something that should be somewhat simple to do, at least through what i've seen of the genre. I guess I got motivated to making a horror game due to my youtube existence with them. Like seriously, I was hook on the genre! Always seeing videos of them, such as Desert Nightmare, Mad Father, and Misao, and seeing how each displayed a scare factor of their own. My personal favorite of the horror RM games was Forest of Drizzling Rain. It contain some aspects of horror, but most of the game revolved on character developement. I always favor good story and character over gameplay, and that's what made me like Drizzling Rain so much. 

 

But I'm going off the train explaining this.  I gotta talk about my own idea of a horror game, Not Me.

 

So this is the summary of the game. Right here:

 

 

Not Me....

A tale of a special man, and many other souls...

Trapped in their own college grounds by a curse from hell.

The demons hunting them down are the Shifters...

Able to look like anyone, be anything, hide anywhere...

And only the special man can decide who is human...

And who is a Shifter.

But, can he really tell? Who is who?

From total strangers to his best of friends?

How long will everyone believe in each other,

Until they can't believe in themselves...?

And then, blood will shed

Not from the Shifters, but from the victims themselves...

They will all say the same thing. It's NOT ME.  

 

 

This horror game's theme is entirely truth, and whether someone is telling it or not. You attempt to find a way out of the hellish alter-world of your university, all the while getting people to join your team. Problem is, those people joining your party can be demons. If you let said demon stay in your party too long, two things will occur. Either a party member(s) kicks the bucket, or instant game over. SO. how the hell you know which is which?

 

This little joke tells how.

"A man with brown hair walks into a bar. He sits, and ask the bartender for some whiskey. The bartender glares at him, and points him out the door, showing the man's ID card who was left behind yesterday. The ID, taken a week ago, has the same man with black hair. The man exits, shifts into a demon, and says "I WILL GET MY WHISKEY. WAIT AND SEE. WAIT AND SEE..."

 

So that's the Ace Attorney thing of the game. You use evidence you find around the game to tell if someone is an ally, or a demon out for your head.  Here's a concept of how the thing works in the spoiler.   (BEWARE Scary Stuff!) 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You look at one of your members carefully (The middle image is the picture you'll see).

You then are given a choice of either examine, question, attack, or ignore. Examine will show an image of the character head to toe, to see if there's an alteration of said character. Question will ask a question to character, to see if she says or reacts differently than normal. Attack will restrain the character, and give another choice to kill or ignore. These are pretty explanatory on what they do. Finally, ignore leaves them be.

 

If you ignore the character, the event ends. If you ignore, and you have a good connection with said character, then s/he gives you positive feedback. (left image) If you done goofed, and ignore character that is actually a demon, then you (or party members) die.

This isn't just limited to people, though. Objects can also be the demon's facade. So if you see a pink, flowery, happy present in your room, don't open it. The interaction bit is only for living characters and not inanimate objects.

 

TL;DR ( <= What does this mean? I see it everywhere in big paragraphs...)

My biggest question about all this is that is this an entertaining concept for a horror game? If so, â€‹is there ways to make it better? If not, what is wrong with it, and how can it be done in an entertaining fashion?

 

Very huge thanks for any criticism on this, cause I'm going full throttle on this project if it works. Any opinion helps! 

[VeNAM 10]

Very cool! I'm not a big fan of horror myself, but this is something I'll have to check out.

 

So the Examine option is going to be a bit like Apollo Justice, I would say.

 

How do you interact with objects? It wouldn't make sense to have a flowery present in a horror game, but a dagger could be useful... if it's safe...

[- Z - 30]

Well, to make object hunting not be a "Where's Waldo" game, early in the game there'll be an object shifter who admits he "can be as small as a present or as big as a car." That would be the basemark on what Shifter you're hunting for, in terms of size. So you approach an object, action event occurs, your either smash object or ignore it. With "object demons," I'm planning to have a variable that will rise in number each time you smash or ignore an object. Once a certain number on the variable is reached, the demon will come out of hiding and instantly kill you.

 

And so that not every place in existence is littered with demons, the main hero (The Special Man) can sense if there's a Shifter nearby, except living shifters. Those you need to go all Phoenix on them. So if you stop suddenly, and the protagonists murmurs, "Creepy place here. Feels like something's watching..." THERE'S A DEMON NEARBY LOOKING FOR BEER.

[VeNAM 10]

I would have the counter go up only if you're wrong about whether or not it's a shifter. Don't punish players for being right. ...At least that's what I got out of that, but the actual intent may have been vastly different. I'm not sure.

[- Z - 30]

Maybe i phrased it wrong... Let me try an example.

 

You enter a classroom. There are many desks. One of those desks want to kill you. So let's say there's 20 desks. Each will be an event that is assessed by "talking to it." You have the choice to ignore the desk or smash it

 

Here's where the variable thing comes in. If you ignore the desk, the variable "Death Count" goes up by 1. If you smash a desk, the variable goes up by 5, a much bigger number than ignoring it. The "death number" is 20. Once that number is reached, the Shifters pops in and gets beer (without comedy, you die). So. it is your duty to tell which desk is the devil. Again, evidence will help in this. Maybe there's a map of the class showing seating location, or one of your party members has a picture of herself in the class, and so on. Or just seeing a black desk instead of a brown one helps, too.

 

That's how most of the object events will occur. Some will have a time limit, and a different variable count. Hell, some will have the object moving towards you under a flashing light. Different ways, each more intense than the last.

 

One question. Should the death be a jump scare, like Five Nights at Freddy? I don't favor jumpscares a lot since it's somewhat a way to get a cheap scare, but it may work in this. What you think?

[VeNAM 10]

Personally, I hate jumpscares. But that's coming from the guy who flips out when somebody stealthily approaches from behind.

 

Thinking logically, I don't really see how a Shifter entering for beer of all things would necessitate a jumpscare. The only reason I can think of for a death in that situation is "Hey, there's that 'special guy'. I should probably off him before he kills me,"

 

On an unrelated note... why is smashing an innocent desk such a horrible idea, compared to sparing a fake one? Also, what's the point of party members, enough to take the risk of accepting in Shifters? Are there battles?

[Kayzee 4,032]

I would assume smashing a desk just takes more time and/or draws more attention. Party members could always have useful skills outside of battle, like lockpicking, or computer hacking, or any other thing really.

 

Anyway I am usually not a fan of horror in general, because there isn't anything that really scares me. I can appreciate some horror from an artistic or storytelling point of view,  particularly surreal horror, but I am often bored with jumpscares and stuff. But in my opinion your idea is that it actually is a bit more interesting gameplay-wise then a lot of horror games, maybe story-wise too. But it really would come down to the writing and how well you pull off the investigation aspects.

 

I do have a few thoughts on things that I think would be interesting though:

• If you can, it would be fun to randomize some things between playthroughs. Perhaps sometimes particular party members or items are demons and sometimes they are not, the actual evidence may be found in different places, and you need to look for different things. Make sure the player can never ever rely on past knowledge. If the game is short enough, a permadeath system might be a good idea too. This would be more tricky to pull off because you would have to design your puzzles to be game mechanics. What I mean is, like in Papers, Please where you are given some papers and have to mark the discrepancies in them. The game could quite easily randomize things because it can keep a list of all the different factors there could be discrepancies in, and the puzzle involves actually marking where the difference lies. Though admittingly this is probably something you would need lots of scripting for in RPG Maker.
• It would be interesting if you wrote it so it was never quite made clear if the demons were actually real or not. You only can confront them if no one else is around for example, when you kill a demon they leave a body behind you may have to hide. Maybe it's all in your head, or maybe the demons just want you to think that. Maybe the twist is you were the demon the whole time. You gotta play with the player's heads a bit don't ya think?
• Make sure you have UFO and dog endings! Every horror game should have at least one of those! :3

Edited December 7, 2014 by KilloZapit

[Spectre 829]

Not too sure I like the setting of the game, but combining investigation with horror has a lot of potential - rather than overtly avoiding your fears, you're forced to confront them.

 

Killo is on the right track with randomization. It's tedious, but guarantees a different experience every game. Tony might try to kill helpless Mimi on one game, and in the next, Mimi might have to kill you. As a twist too, maybe consider that the only way out of hell (revealed mid-game) is to kill others; demon or not, as marked targets; thus giving the incentive behind the demons' attacks. This adds an element of suspense as your own party now can and will suspect, and take action against you. Kill too many innocents, or smash too much of property, and someone comes after you.

 

We start with the party members. Obviously they can't just be there as cannon fodder for when you do start to kill them off - you could, of course, give each of them some use regardless of whether they're demons. Pick specializations, e.g. Mimi has slightly better demon perception than you, and can point out objects that are definitely not demons, and Sergei can fight off two demons, not one, before he dies. Of course, these can backfire: if you do attack Sergei once, he flees and may or may not shift away, or if you don't have at least 2 party members, he will kill you if you try to attack him. Mimi can use her perception against you by hiding as more unorthodox objects.

 

On to the searching - at all times, force the player into a position where anything and everything can and will kill you. Barring maybe the first few shifters that you meet, you may have to use an axe lying in the classroom to smash the desks. That axe may very well be the demon; heck, just entering the classroom could put you straight inside a demon's mouth. Be creative; but at the same time not overly brutal to the point where ending the game depends on dice rolls.

Likewise, for the more daring of players, reward them. Have another bullet to easily execute characters hiding in one of the desks, or more clues as to what the demon can look like.

 

On top of that, if you want to use a truth mechanic, make sure to have heavy interactivity. Talk to others, and if they don't kill you right away, they may or may not reveal positive information or join your party and help in the long term. Have a fixed 'safe point' - in the bar, for instance, the barkeep will never kill you, nor will any of your party members. However he doesn't tell you very much, and finding out more means that you have to be adventurous and start investigating around.

 

On the other hand, punish players for paranoia. Smash too many objects, and they'll get a message flash on screen in red: "Your collateral damage has proven detrimental to the school. A disciplinary escort will arrive shortly to administer formal punishment." You will then have a limited time to find the demon until you inevitably die.

Likewise, kill too many innocent people, and you cut to a black screen with a heavily disfigured Lady Justice, and the game ends.

 

As for the final point on jumpscares, they are cheap, but not entirely uncalled for. Don't overdo the jumpscares; instead working with tension. Even on death scenes, not all deaths need to be jumpscares - some show the guy transforming into a demon, pinning you to a wall, then slicing your head off. It's slow and expected, but the transformation is the real shock value.

Likewise, time your scares wisely, and you can use false positives - play a scare chord and flash light even when the player is smashing innocuous objects, or have random hallucinations that don't affect the gameplay. You could even use them to throw real or false clues toward the player.

[Kayzee 4,032]

I just mostly think randomization fits this type of game, it works to make the player paranoid, to make sure they are always out of their comfort zone.

 

Hehe, I kinda am wondering now if you could also make game menus and interface things also demons sometimes... sometimes very rarely a menu might have a slight misspelling or something, and if you click it...

Edited December 8, 2014 by KilloZapit

[+ Chaosian 617]

Ah, a very cool premise. I love the paranoia it would lend itself to. If you haven't seen John Carpenter's 1982 remake of the The Thing, you seriously have to.

Edited December 8, 2014 by Chaosian

[- Z - 30]

Actually, Chaosian, the Thing is one of the biggest motivations I had in making this game. The paranoia thing i saw in that movie is what really got me, and the shocks on who the "Thing" was during the movies, and of course, their ugly transformations...    I was also motivated by Prop Hunt, in a way. Always had fun in that game mode looking for the moving desk... heh.

 

Heck, even Sonic.exe plays a small part in my Shifter design. :wacko:  As you seen from the first post, the Shifter version of the girl.has some characteristics of Sonic.exe. With the creepy smile, and the small, bloody iris. I added the horns so the devil part can be seen. And that's the majority Shifter design for most of them: bloody eyes, horns(more than 2 and of varying sizes), and an altered body shape, whether be a wider mouth or the entire head being the mouth.

 

Let me give some more explanations on the game, though

About the setting... A college is the last place for any horror media, but I chose it for a good reason.

It's new. Most school related horrors come in high schools, with high-schoolers as the target. However, in a college, there's still just students and faculty entering the place, but the diversity of each is what sets them apart. Some students are there after a degree. Some are after transfer. Some are just there. Some study biology, while others study engineering. That's what I love about it. It gives the party you recruit being diverse, in emotions, motives, and character.

 

Speaking of characters... The party members you recruit in your adventure in hell play as both aids and danger.

The party members are diverse, as explained before, and that's how they play a vital role in the game. Each member of your team has a knowledge of the school others do not. They each have their own memories of the college that they remember. alone. They are your key to survival. You take some party members who know a specific thing you need (for example, you're heading to the library, and you recruit a librarian to go with you). That way, you have a much higher chance of knowing what's out of place and what isn't. Besides knowledge, They will also have their own set of skills, as Killo and Spectre told, such as the lockpick thing. Hell, one member of yours just serves as the moral booster, the charismatic man who motivates everyone to carry on. You'll know how big of a change would occur if he died...

 

However, as mentioned, they can also be your worst enemy. with the constant fear of anything out to kill you, trust begins to crumble, and paranoia does the dirty work. One of the more intense moments of a game is when someone enters your party. Just looking funny will have paranoic members attack the individual instantly, causing chaos. Worst of all, the person they're attack can be a human being just like the rest of you. It's such moments like these is what drives me to enjoy writing the story of this game. Where trust is all that matters, and without it, everything falls apart.

 

As for randomization.... I'm skeptical of it. Sure, it WILL definitely alter the game hugely every playthrough. But damn, the work... I'll see if I can get some in without overworking myself overnight. I did consider randomization a part of the game, but I more prefer the open world idea I had more, where you don't go to point A to B until Endgame. You decide where you go. The game starts at a cafe, but you choose where to go from there. Hate math? Head to the library. Hate books? Head to the biology building. Want guns? Head to the Administration of Justice. Hate everything? Open a pretty pink present! The game will still end in Z, but from A, you can go to B, D, or even Q. Need opinions on this, though.

 

Randomization, different paths, or both?

 

Now let me get to some answering of things.

-The ignore/smash count on desks. Let's put it this way. You were the Shifter hiding. You see the target looking at the desks intently. Then, he smashes one with a fire axe. Won't you suspect he may smash you next? Obviously you will realize he's coming for you, but doesn't know quite yet. So once you see an opening before you get axed, you GET SOME BEER. That's my take on the counter, but I don't mind changing up the formula a bit, as in a Shifter is really clueless, and the counter will only go up by smashing objects.

-The reward/punish mechanic. I have plans for such things, and your ideas, Spectre, sound pretty fitting for them. One punish moment I had was that you kill an innocent person in assumption she was a shifter, and a member in your party had a crush on the character, and attacks you. You unfortunately have no choice but to also kill said character as well, making that you lost 2 members who each had valuable information.

-The safe zone concept. To make my life easier, one location, i'm deciding on the cafe, will be your pernament safe zone. It will have some magic hoo-haa that prevents shifter from entering the place, and thus you have a safe haven from hell. Only way for Shifters to go in is through open doors. THIS IS HOW THEY CAN STILL GET YOU EVEN IN THE SAFE ZONE. What if you recruited a Shifter? You just let them in the place with all your party members. Leave them be, and, well, beer time. (This has become a running gag. Beer...)

-The comedy ending. Beer. Since I make too many jokes with it here in the forums, I'll have a fun ending involving that. Maybe the entire thing was actually a popular TV show, and actors, some still costumed as Shifters, enter a bar and celebrate! With all shoulder to shoulder celebrating a Thanksgiving holiday from work! Yay for all!!!

 

Sorry for the long post. I'll put another post later about the story. All critics welcome, and thank you!!   

[+ Chaosian 617]

Speaking of open world and randomization. Be careful of the scope of the game, it seems like you've really nailed the premise of the game spot on - it would be a real shame if the project fell through, or a bunch of it had to be cut because of over-ambition. RNG is a pretty powerful tool, but procedurally generated systems are crazy hard to engineer- especially, I bet, in RPG maker. I don't really know where I'd even start (maybe common events..?). You seem to be pretty on top of this already, and are keeping things in mind, so that's good to hear.

 

College is innately a lot more interesting than high-school. Maybe its less 'coming of age' but for a lot of people, it's a lot scarier of a time than high school. College is the first time you're really on your own in an adult setting, people just in general are a lot colder than they were in high-school - and a lot hotter.  Couple this with the fact that a lot of campuses have dorms - there's some slight sense of natural isolation from the rest of the adult world.

 

Now, if you're looking for criticism that, though I find the art style in your sketch perfectly acceptable for this kind of thing, I don't find the the actual idea behind the Shifters particularly appealing. It could be entirely just me, but I'm not much one for demons, it's a pretty archaic fear - and while I know it holds a lot of popularity, Sonic.exe isn't the crowning achievement in modern horror. Come to think of it, I don't even really know where the horror from Sonic.exe comes from... haunted video-games? Oh no~... don't eat my soul~...

 

I'm also missing a little bit of a sense of setting. The Shifters are just a fact of life for these people? Or are they result of some recent event? The former sounds like a pretty grueling existence, which has the potential for a lot of dark overtones and a world without hope, but the latter would present a better 3-act structure and opportunity for characters. Depends on the story you wanna tell.

 

Also, as I missed it earlier...

TL;DR = too long; didn't read.

[Kayzee 4,032]

I recognize randomization might not always be the most practical thing to do. I kinda think open world design and randomization sort of go together well myself, but it really depends. There is no reason why everything has to be randomized really, just enough things. As much fun as it sounds to have a game that has a totally random layout, characters, or such, that's not really what I was thinking.

 

If I may get technical for a bit, randomization works best when you have an enumerable set of possible outcomes. I used Papers, Please as an example, where you have a set of facts and a set of data that might not agree with the facts. It's fairly easy to check if something is the same or not, because you can basically boil everything down to numbers. If the facts say someones eyes are blue and the data says green, it's usually just choosing a number from a list of possible values and comparing them. Blue could be 1, and green could be 2, and 1 is not equal 2, so it's obvious something is wrong there.

 

That applies to other things too. If you have a list of items that you want to scatter around and a list of locations you want items to appear in, it's fairly easy to mix up where items appear (more so if you do stuff with scripting and arrays admittingly), and the same with people. You could even make a graph of rooms and their connections to help people move between them sometimes if you wanted. As long as you try and think of all the possible outcomes for something, you can probably randomize it.

 

But of course I am mostly talking about theory here. Practically, unless you are willing to engage in some heavy scripting and you think you understand it enough, you are probably going to be a lot more limited using just variables and switches. There are a still a lot of things you could do with variables and switches, such as setting them to random values and using them to do some complex events. Imagine for example having a switch for each item you set if it's a demon, and each item runs a common event that checks it. Or a variable used to choose which item is in a particular spot. Or a pair that is used for a particular thing about a person and some evidence you find about them.

 

In the end though, if you don't feel you can pull it off though, stick to what you know. It was always a pipedream idea anyway.  :3

[- Z - 30]

Don't worry about the size of the game, Chaosian. The plot i'm about to explain is what I plan to follow, and so I have an idea of what I want to deal off with first.

 

And the randomization thing seems viable even with switches and variables, Killo. Although if a script can help me make my life easier on this, then by all means I'll download that script 10 times over. I'll go hunting on scripts once i'm done outlining my game plan.

 

Now. FOR DE STORY.

 

Game begins on a flashback of 4 shadowy figures performing a ritual. One of them thinks this ritual is silly, and his other 3 buddies are pushing him to do it already. He shrugs, but he complies. All gather in an old book, and say some ritual hoo-haa of bringing damnation to those they despice, a curse on them, as you will. Each slice their hands to drip blood over a funky symbol, and the cutscene ends.

 

Cut to current time, X/X/2014. We see Markus (fullname: Markus de la Rosa).

 

Handsome man, ain't he?

 

He' wakes up, and compliments on good dream he had last night. He preps up, and decides to head to the cafe. There he meets up with some friends of his. These are Galvin Nguyen, his childhood friend and comedian. (This is the charismatic man I mentioned earlier)

 

Dude loves to troll with Markus.

 

 

The other friend is Katherine Vegas, high-school friend, very otaku.

 

SHE'S GOT THAT HEART SHIRT FROM SOME ANIME I DON'T KNOW, SON.

 

 

Both socialize in their common manner. Markus tells them of last night's dream he had of sitting under a tree with his love interest on his laps, Athena. (no drawing of her yet )

Galvin jokes that Markus did more than just rest under a tree. Markus retaliates, and Kat intervenes so Markus don't choke Galvin out of anger, and changes topic to Attack on Giants. Time flies, and Markus feels tired. He decides to sleep, but not before exploring the campus. This is where the gameplay somewhat begins, where you have the chance to see mostly every party member you recruit, no demons or nothing. This is a bit of a cheat to know how each member looks, but not really, i guess. This is also the chance to see Nina Anthony, a big character in terms of importance later. (the girl i put in the first post)

 

She's basically a stick, but she trust Markus entirely.

 

 

So Markus sleeps. His dream is different this time. He sees only black, and then a voice murmurs. The voice, dark and menacing, says, The damnation begins. May the demons rise and devour every soul. No one will leave in one piece...

Markus immediately wakes up, and the school feels... different. Everyone, including his friends, are missing. The lighting outside feels as if night has fallen, but it's not really nightime. But as he rises, he sees it. A dead body, with the heart entirely missing. He panics, and runs away outside. Now the game really begins.

 

The main way to get from hell university to home is a simple, "Get X pieces to do Y." But you only figure this out through evidences and from even Shifters' messages, left around the school. You recruit members, eventually telling their experiences of what happened. A few of them mentions key plots of the story, as so:

 

• Markus is the only one in the crew who can sense Object and Vision Shifters nearby. He's also the only one able to read Shifter messages, while others cannot.
• There are three types of Shifters. Vision Shifters, who can be invisible, but not transform. You beat these guys by making them visible, as in activating the fire drill system, or splatter oil on them.
• There are Object Shifters, the Prop Hunt demons.
• Finally, there are Living Shifters, who are the biggest problems in the game.
• Later, there's Torture Shifters, shifters with neither 3 characteristis, but they can morph their body to menacing weapons of death. I plan to make these the Bosses of the game, but eventing will be a huge issue. I don't feel on making this an RPG battle, as more of an event battle, like with Crooked Man. (around 11:30)
• These Shifters find killing you guys too boring, so they attempt to get your team to kill each other, thus the motive of Living Shifters. This plan is forgotten once you get rid of a lot of their kind killed off.
• The way out is to get 5 Star of D Keys, held by specific shifters. Most of these are held by the torture shifters. It is later reveal that there are 10 keys, and all are need to really escape.
• Some have seen a Super Shifter, who is responsible of murdering everyone in Dorm Building I. Everyone hopes to not see it.
• The entire curse was placed by a ritual, but no one knows why.

The most important members you must keep alive are the Main 5, which are Nina, Galvin, Katherine, Athena, and Hector, another close friend of Markus. You need them alive and all 10 Keys to achieve the true end of Not Me. Which is another thing i want to point out.

 

Multiple endings. (Min 4) Should I do it?

 

And that's it for plot. Any questions? All critisicm welcome, as always. Thanks for reading!!!

 

Little notes:

Killo, that menu idea... I LIKE IT. *writes it down on notebook*

Spectre, nice idea on the Door Shifter. Didn't think of that. And don't worry of Shifter locations. Objects will be suspisious when Markus feels uneasy in a room. That will be a giveaway that a Shifter is nearby. It's up to evidence and common sense to figure out what is misplaced.

The Shifters are demons cause I've really haven't seen a horror game with bonified demons as the enemies. Most are a crazy killer, a scary monster, or ghosts. I've haven't seen a true demon straight from hell that is hunting the player. But I really haven't played many horror games or seen many horror movies. I guess i'm somewhat timid to see... i don't know.

Sonic.exe is by no means my main motivation, but it did game me a baseline on what scary monsters i like as the main enemies. The bloody eyes and creepy smile just got to me as, "These will be Shifters. No questions."

And so i drew Shifters.

 

 

So pretty.

 

 

Ok. OFFICIAL END OF POST. Thanks again!

[Kayzee 4,032]

I don't know, I kinda think giving you characters you can always trust sort of spoils the broth, honey i think that's not true, well--- god damn it get out of my head! paranoia of everything and everyone possibly being a shifter, but I guess that isn't really a big deal. I kinda like the idea of who is alive at the end determining the ending though. Maybe if everyone dies, the main character is arrested and put away as a serial killer who killed them all. Then right before the end credits when the doctors are examining him, they all briefly shift into shifter forms just for a moment, making the main character struggle and scream uselessly.

 

You know, I actually did some thinking about the kind of battles I would do if I ever made a horror game myself actually... it made me think that a lot of horror game puzzles involve finding a key item and using it on something, so I thought maybe something that was heavily based on using your inventory would be best. You might want to make the Torture Shifters boss battles sorta like that too, maybe sort of like a rock paper scissors thing where the enemy shifts into something and you have to counter it using an inventory items. It always kind of struck me as anti-climactic if you just can hack away at big bad monsters in horror games, and always thought it best if battles had a puzzle element or something.

 

Also, as for scripts to help you with randomization, I doubt you are going to find any particular premade script that will help with what you want to do, but if you need anything you could always request it! I might even try and help you myself if I can. There are tons of ways little ways I think a bit of scripting could help make eventing a lot more flexible and easier when dealing with this kind of stuff though! Like for example, suppose you had have a bunch of variables you want to each set to one of a range of numbers, but you want to make sure each number can only be chosen once. It's really really hard to do with events but pretty easy to do with a script. Almost anything to do with lists is a lot easier to do with scripts actually, and that isn't even counting all the fun things you can do with classes and hashes... but I am getting ahead of myself. It kinda reminds me of this script I wrote ages ago for someone though. It's mostly just a simple database lookup thing, but it can be used for all sorts of event stuff.

[Spectre 829]

Well, if you don't want randomization that's fine really. But thanks, I'm flattered. In any case, a few points:

 

- Leave out the Star of D Keys, or make getting them less of a grind fest. It sort of ruins the heavy tension if you know how many keys you need to leave the place, let alone how to leave. Instead, merely leave clues and stuff when you kill suspicious shifters.

 

- Don't theme the shifters too much on demons. Simply making them uncanny will suffice. I liked the split head one, but the horns make her cheesy.

 

- Some shifters should still be able to kill you from the get-go.

 

- Please don't go overboard with beer. It most likely can and will ruin the timing of horror. Feel free for the non-fright scenes though.

 

Anyway, I've recently sketched up some of my stuff; maybe this could help with a few Shifters.

 

 

 

Clement/Teeth: Kid with the braces, rather gluttonous, enjoys hanging around the cafe to find out what their next special is.

In-Party: Clement can smuggle food for everyone, which delays all of their imminent deaths and counters while they eat. This is especially useful when one of your members is on the verge of death. He also grants a perception bonus in the Cafe, the Bar and the in-campus Restaurant.

Shifter Form: Clement's face peels back to reveal a giant blob with a large mouth, which proceeds to eat you or an ally. If he eats an ally, he escapes, and has an affinity for shifting into 1. very large objects, and 2. rooms.

 

Greg/The Jock: Initially distrustful of you, workout fanatic, but persuading him can give you a valuable ally.

In-Party: Greg's strength allows him to move larger objects like barricades aside, revealing hidden locations and Shifters. Greg gives a perception bonus in the Gym and Locker Rooms.

Shifter Form: Greg may become one of the most feared shifters; the Brute Shifter. It will definitely hold a valuable clue to advance the storyline if encountered and killed, but if caught off-guard by it, regardless of who is on your party, it kills you instantly. Morphs into a grotesque mass of muscle that is at least twice as large as the next huge shifter. If he escapes, he can morph into anything, even the floors.

 

The Adjutant/Creepy Puppet:

The de facto administrator of the school, only encountered if you kill too many innocents or smash too many innocent objects. His first warning appears when you kill 1 innocent, where he appears as a porcelain doll with a large head and a lazy eye to tell you off. You may get flickers of him in his 'corrupted form'.

Randomly destroying innocent objects or people may cause hallucinations of his corrupted face flashing on screen, accompanied by the words "Tut, tut, child" or "How very rude". Destroy too many, and one of two death scenes may happen: the distorted Lady Justice, or the Adjutant's corrupt face appearing on screen a la Golden Freddy style, accompanied by a mechanical roar, instantly killing you.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Spectre

[+ Chaosian 617]

A lot of really good advice being said above, I'd definitely keep it all in mind.

 

All I can really think to add is that you might want to prototype the mechanics of the game before you dive into actually developing it. Are the systems fun before the story and the context?

[VeNAM 10]

Holy cow, this is even more awesome!

Aahh... I wish I could help, but I'm basically just an amateur mapper. Do you take help in the form of moral support?

[- Z - 30]

Well, Venam, any help or advice is helpful to me. It's best to get opinions or just a "way to go!" from other people than to do a project without criticism. Giving moral support can go a long way.

 

The knowledge I'm hunting for currently is University knowledge. I'm currently in a community college, but obviously a University is vastly different. What I want to know in particular is buildings in Universities. So far, the game's setting, named Silver Condor University, has these places:

• Main Office Building
• Science/Biology Building
• 2 Cafe Areas
• 2 Dorm Buildings (I and II)
• Administration of Justice
• Observatory
• English/Language Building
• History/Foreign Bulding
• Business/Presentational
• Student Union
• Gym, with Softball, Baseball, and Football Field
• 2 Student Parking Lots
• Tech/Engineer Building
• Library/Computer Building
• Auditorium

Any other places I'm missing, or should be cut out?

 

Now let me answer some stuff.

Killo, if you can get me a script that makes my life easier, then....then.... BEER FOR YOU! But I'll ask for a script once I go into game deb on the RM engine. I'm still busy with finals this week and jotting ideas down.

The main 5 are you're biggest important characters, but by no means they aren't suspectible to Shifter danger, as well. In fact, the most intense moments in Not Me will have them a part of the event. Your best of friends can still be Shifters, and the deaths that come their will really prove your knowledge on the game's mechanics.

The boss idea i like, but i'll try to mix both hack and slash bosses and stragetic bosses. There's 10 keys to get, so a good 2 of these can be hacks, while 2 others can be stragetic. Thanks for the idea, though!

 

Spectre, i'm planning to stay with the demon aspect, mainly due to I have no other idea who can the enemy be. It also sets how they appeared (Like the book ritual thing in the beginning of the game), and why they're so hideous in transformations. They're from hell; something from hell is never pretty! Unless I mention Hell Girl, then that's a different story. I'm open for any other idea of enemies, though.

The Star Keys serve as the game progression part of my game, but knowing the locations of these will require certain member, items, and even shifter deaths. I won't put up a sign saying "A key is here!" I'll still keep the discovery of the truth thing, and that's no different in terms of finding the way out.

I will have some Shifter who just straight up chase the player until they escape or get you. Need to have the old chasing monster mechanic, but these events will be few or altered to fit the game's theme. One i favor is when a Shifter screws hiding, and straight up changes into a car, and tries to play hit and run.

The beer joke is actually a Forum thing i put up for jokes. I never wrote it down on my notes, but darn, I feel that i should. It's sounds silly, too. "That Shifters coming after us!" Then someone throws a beer at the Shifter and instantly knocks him out. These fearsome demons...beaten by achoholic beverages.

And DAYUM. Just... DAYUM. You got some creativity on Shifters. *writes down ideas, crediting Spectre* I don't really favor the Adjutant's look. Maybe it's the hat. Kind of more old days fashion, compare to 2000s look, but I favor the idea of killing of innocence's punishment.

 

Oh, about that...

I want the party members to give mostly information as their way of assisting the player, and not special talents. Remember, they still are objected to being killed off by a random Shifter. And if a member who can, say, push heavy objects, kicks it, then the player has a major disadvantage in map exploration. Maybe I can have it so another member can also push heavy objects, like having multiple have the same talent, but... i don't know. I don't want to make a player lose a chance to explore a place just because he couldn't save a party member with the special attribute of map effect. I'll see what i can do, but keep the ideas coming.

 

Chaosian, about your prototype thing. Can you elaborate more? My interpretation of your reply says I should create a small demo of the game. I can do that, but to save time, I'll just use RTP and other DLC i've bought off discounts, and make a quick little demo baselining the mechanics. Sounds like a plan, but please reply. Maybe I read your thing the wrong way.

 

Again, Thanks to all of you guys! You're really upping me to get going on this Project! :D

 

Now time for me to go to damn sleep. What the F@#$ am i doing replying in 1:oo AM??? I GOT A DAMN FINAL TO DO TODAY. DAYUM.

(smacks head onto pillow)

Edited December 9, 2014 by - Z -

[+ Chaosian 617]

I'll elaborate ask you asked, but you seem to have the right idea already.

 

You can imagine it like a demo, though it doesn't have to be nearly as presentable. The purpose of the prototype is to prove out the concepts you have in your head, and really iron out all the blurry aspects that exist between having an idea for a game and executing on it. Just like a demo, a prototype helps prove that the game can be fun to play (and make!), and that the mechanical systems make functional sense. For a project like this, I'd recommend to at least test out how the mechanics of the game are going to work. Maybe you could also try your hand at some sample art or sample writing, if you were looking to jump right in.

If you're planning on doing the game with variables and switches, and it might involve some random / procedural generation, it might be a good idea to make sure that you can make a small section of the game that can do this the way you want it to, first. It doesn't even have to be very long, maybe 5 minutes of gameplay.

It's a good idea because it prevents you from writing all the plot and dialogue, and doing all the art, and then finding out that actually making the game is an insane technical undertaking that you can't perform.

And don't worry about graphics, everything can be boxes if it need be, all that really matters is that you're getting into the engine and understanding what you can and can't do with your concept, before you start making the game.

 

Also, the university I was at for a short bit had a store for school supplies! Perhaps something to consider?

[Spectre 829]

Still more feedback given what you've heard. I'm really interested in seeing this project kick off the ground. It's creative, but at the same time I'd rather it strays away from too many mainstream RPG conventions.

 

 

Spectre, i'm planning to stay with the demon aspect, mainly due to I have no other idea who can the enemy be. It also sets how they appeared (Like the book ritual thing in the beginning of the game), and why they're so hideous in transformations. They're from hell; something from hell is never pretty! Unless I mention Hell Girl, then that's a different story. I'm open for any other idea of enemies, though.

I know, I know. What I'm saying is don't do too many horns or pitchforks or tails. Those tend to represent more comical elements of demonology; instead, work with uncanny portraits and distorted facial structures. You had a lot going for the shredded heads and the demonic eyes. The horns really ruined the pictures for me, IMO, and cut back on how scary they can be by a long shot; especially considering it's a transformation sequence.

For inspiration, work with Black Eyed Children tropes or face distortion. Search up the "uncanny valley" trope as well, it'll do wonders for your portrait creation.

 

While we're on that topic, The Adjutant was initially created as a hallucination, akin to Golden Freddy. He basically serves as a warning system, hence why he's a puppet and not a demon. Or he could be both, but looks vastly different due to his rather surreptitious role in-game. He doesn't get killed, he just observes. Or maybe he doesn't exist at all.

 

 

The main 5 are you're biggest important characters, but by no means they aren't suspectible to Shifter danger, as well. In fact, the most intense moments in Not Me will have them a part of the event. Your best of friends can still be Shifters, and the deaths that come their will really prove your knowledge on the game's mechanics.

The boss idea i like, but i'll try to mix both hack and slash bosses and stragetic bosses. There's 10 keys to get, so a good 2 of these can be hacks, while 2 others can be stragetic. Thanks for the idea, though!

I love the first part - your reliance on the same 5 people could also spell your doom. Perhaps include auxiliary characters that you can add in at a later date to your party as replacements/additional hands, but remember that they, too, carry a risk.

 

I personally found that hack-and-slash ruins your game mechanics entirely. If you're keen on investing in investigation and a more Ace Attorney feel, please cut out all RPG combat; the two styles don't fit very well together in any sense of the word. It's a strong suggestion, but believe me when I say that if specialization (and by extension, the wow factor of your game) is your selling point, adding pure RPG mechanics will only jeopardize that. Strategic is fine by me, and if possible, avoid any form of combat - either move in for the kill or get killed. Demons and Shifters ought to overpower the player anyway.

 

 

I want the party members to give mostly information as their way of assisting the player, and not special talents. Remember, they still are objected to being killed off by a random Shifter. And if a member who can, say, push heavy objects, kicks it, then the player has a major disadvantage in map exploration. Maybe I can have it so another member can also push heavy objects, like having multiple have the same talent, but... i don't know. I don't want to make a player lose a chance to explore a place just because he couldn't save a party member with the special attribute of map effect. I'll see what i can do, but keep the ideas coming.

If most of your map is reliant on moving heavy objects around, and only one guy can do that, it's not about my suggestion, it's that you have very poor map design. Nonetheless I can see where you are coming from, and really these should confer additional benefits. Death of members will still hinder the player, and it's up to you to draw the line.

My suggestion with Greg/The Jock seemed more applicable if only few, hard-to-reach locations that aren't overly crucial to the plot can be accessed, additional hints, for instance.

 

 

The beer joke is actually a Forum thing i put up for jokes. I never wrote it down on my notes, but darn, I feel that i should. It's sounds silly, too. "That Shifters coming after us!" Then someone throws a beer at the Shifter and instantly knocks him out. These fearsome demons...beaten by achoholic beverages.

I never actually found it funny to begin with, but if that's what you like, be my guest. Again, keep it for one or two scenes. Having it as a repeated joke ruins the horror element.

 

As much as I don't want to say all that, to be honest, horror really works with good tension and timing - either of the two messed up can greatly dampen the impact of a good scare or buildup to a scare. It should set the player on edge, and typical RPG combat dulls the player's perceptions to the tropes of the "horror movie monster".

What makes FNaF so scary, to quote a more prolific example, wasn't just that the animatronics are downright creepy; it was that being caught off-guard, or looking at the wrong object at the wrong time, can easily set off a jumpscare to kill you, and the first few times you experience it, it conditions you into a heightened sense of alertness. That should be the crux behind a good horror game - it's almost formulaic, yet the creativity and possibilities ought to be set out enough that the player is constantly on edge.

[Kayzee 4,032]

Killo, if you can get me a script that makes my life easier, then....then.... BEER FOR YOU! But I'll ask for a script once I go into game deb on the RM engine. I'm still busy with finals this week and jotting ideas down.

I think the problem with getting you scripts is I am not sure exactly what you will need, and I suspect you are going to need very particular custom-made stuff that will depend a lot on how you want to design the game. It might actually be helpful for you to try and learn some scripting yourself, or to get a dedicated scripter to help you.

 

I think that NPC Database thing I linked to, or something like it, might be a good start for some puzzles actually, if you can figure it out, simply because it can be used to compare arbitrary things. I might be able to expand it into something more useful for you, I am not sure. But even comparing things still might involve more scripting then most people would feel confident about.

 

It really depends on how you want to do evidence. I mean, what is evidence? An ID? Or a poem someone wrote? Some random object? What does it actually mean or imply about something? This is especially important if you want to use some randomization, to think of how evidence boils down to some abstract value that can be compared. I think this is one of the things about game design that is hard for most people to wrap their heads around actually. You can have a story, a theme, a art style, and all that, and that's easy for most people to understand. But coming up with the kind of abstract system behind it all is more tricky.

[VeNAM 10]

I have a suggestion! To make the main five thing more suspenseful, have them leave the party for various tasks every so often. That way, they can be in the party from the beginning, but still have the chance for them being Shifters.

[- Z - 30]

Before I go on, I'd like to thank everyone here helping me out so much on my project! it really mean a lot to me!

 

Now, answer time.

Chaosian. *facepalms* HOW COME I FORGOT THE STORE??? Thank you! I've completely forgot the store! No other place in University are things so overpriced!!!   Thank you for reminding me!

And about the demo. Sure! I can give i quick one after final exams. Basic plot and game mechanics. Gives me a chance to see if my default programming can work out! Thanks for elaborating.

 

Spectre. The only demon part I'll have will be horns, so no cartoony demon tails, wings, or farmer forks. The horns won't be convential horns, either. I'll have the horns play with the Shifter's uncanny designs. I have an idea for the horns being a sort of teeth, or even pinsers on other Shifter designs. Besides horns, that's the only thing the Shifters are compare to convential demons. And big thanks for telling me the "uncanny valley" trope. I've never heard of the trope, but I'm glad i did.

The hack-and-slash mechanic isn't going to go into a random RPG battle, oh no. I want it to be more like Crooked Man, if you know about that game. In some instance in that game, you go 1 on 1 on the monster, whacking it with a knife or shooting it with a gun, until it goes down. I like watching those moments in the game, due to finally fighting your fears instead of running for it.

And that's what you kind of do in Not Me. Sure, you don't exactly kill them in a battle, but you do swing a Fire Axe once you know which facade is a Shifter. I still wish to do this battle type of event, but thinking about it, I really don't know how in terms of eventing. I'll try to event one boss battle out, see if it works. I'm starting to favor your evidental boss battle more, though.

 

 

If most of your map is reliant on moving heavy objects around, and only one guy can do that, it's not about my suggestion, it's that you have very poor map design. Nonetheless I can see where you are coming from, and really these should confer additional benefits. Death of members will still hinder the player, and it's up to you to draw the line. My suggestion with Greg/The Jock seemed more applicable if only few, hard-to-reach locations that aren't overly crucial to the plot can be accessed, additional hints, for instance.

Now i feel silly not realizing this. I even planned earlier some party members aren't entirely necessary due to them only giving knowledge to where get other knowledge. SO I'M BAD ON PLANNING.

The comedy will serve as a tension releaser for the players. I mean, scaring them 24/7 isn't my cup of tea, so putting in a few jokes will alleviate tension. Most, if not all, jokes will only happen while players are resting, before the actual horror begins, and maybe as a comical ending, as Killo mentioned. I'll limit comedy to a few, since I still wish to keep the haunting atmosphere and paranoia. Heck, I even thought of a scene where the jokester (Main 5 - Galvin) will have some members angry at him, for seeing all this hell as a "joke." You decide whether to help or let the ragers continue.

 

Seriously, Spetre. You're giving me a lot to think about for my project, and I really thank you for that.

 

Killo. Most of the "evidence" of the game will be items that decribes something or activate a Common Event that shows an image with incriminating evidence on it. I don't know if I want a set of items, like x12 Hot Dogs. The only one will be the Key Items, the Star of Ds. Other than that, that's all i'll need for evidence. This, and player memory. I don't favor having everything written for the player to read or check. I also want the player to have some memorization and logic applied, so the entire game isn't holding your hand, so to speak.

So I may, or may not need a script. It all depends if i can do this with comfort using switches and variables. Still, thank you for the idea.

 

VeNAM, exactly what I have for the Main 5, and lesser so with party members. Sometimes, people get confident, a bit too confident, and believe they can perform actions on their own. So they do so. And depending on what happens, they can do the thing themselve, or a Shifter will.  I plan to do this, either by overconfidence, or some party members are attracted to do so by temptation or hallucination by Shifters.

 

Before I go off, I like to have some questions answered or explained. These been floating my mind for a while, now.

 

Should I have every little thing be an "evidence," or should I have some things only known by player memory and logic?

 

LOVE. Good idea? I plan to have the three female Main 5 be a sort of love interest towards the player. each are different in attitude and goal. Definitely adds more tension in defending them. But. Is it a good idea?

 

Biggest question here. Should there be a visible karma meter? Like, how good/bad of a person are you, and should that be visible for the player to see? The karma thing will serve as the decider of the ending, to some extent.

 

Thanks again for all the criticism! No wonder I like these forums so much.

Edited December 11, 2014 by - Z -

[Kayzee 4,032]

Killo. Most of the "evidence" of the game will be items that decribes something or activate a Common Event that shows an image with incriminating evidence on it. I don't know if I want a set of items, like x12 Hot Dogs. The only one will be the Key Items, the Star of Ds. Other than that, that's all i'll need for evidence. This, and player memory. I don't favor having everything written for the player to read or check. I also want the player to have some memorization and logic applied, so the entire game isn't holding your hand, so to speak.

So I may, or may not need a script. It all depends if i can do this with comfort using switches and variables. Still, thank you for the idea.

Well what I was kinda thinking is, the possibility of a set of items that implicitly or explicitly imply particular facts, and it is up to the player to figure out what those facts mean based on the rules of a system. I mean I already used the example of Papers, Please for fact checking between documents, but I think a better example of what I mean is the board game Clue, where cards are given to players and you need to figure out which cards are missing. I mean obviously I am not suggesting that exact thing, I am just wondering if there is a set of logical rules you can use to figure out the puzzle with randomized evidence. I guess it's related to your first question.

 

Should I have every little thing be an "evidence," or should I have some things only known by player memory and logic?

I think it depends on what you mean by memory and logic. I think this kind of paranoid horror you seem to be going for would work best if you can't just scum through it, if you can't just use the same solution for every playthrough. That is why I like the idea of randomization and systematized puzzles. But the actual rules of the puzzles and how they work should be based on logic and you would have to figure out what the rules are and memorize how they worked.

 

And really you don't have to as some grand big complex thing, you can do lots of mini puzzles for different situation. You don't have to really announce the puzzle at all. Imagine if one of your party members went away for a bit, and when they came back they have a slightly different eye or hair color, or something. Not sure how practical that would be but the player may not even notice it, until it's too late. You could find pictures of people you don't know that well that show how they should look. The trick is, the game should never point out that you have to pay attention to that fact till it's too late, you just have to figure it out on your own.

 

If party members could carry or give you items, maybe it would be important to keep in mind what those items are. Like there a dead body somewhere that has been killed with an axe, and one of your party members just happens to be carrying one. But it doesn't have to be that obvious and the items that are suspect in some event could be different, party members could always start with different things.

 

Also it could matter where items are found. Did you find a knife in some character's room or a place they hang out a lot in? but there could be different places that item could be found that mean different things.

 

There are lots of ways to do this kind of thing, but I think it's a good idea to try and think of different ways items can imply different things depending on situation you are in is all I am saying.

 

LOVE. Good idea? I plan to have the three female Main 5 be a sort of love interest towards the player. each are different in attitude and goal. Definitely adds more tension in defending them. But. Is it a good idea?

Well... can you really look me in the eye and tell me you can do it in a way that doesn't feel annoying, tacked-on, shallow, or like a attempt to cheaply emotionally manipulate the player? If so, I guess why not?

 

Biggest question here. Should there be a visible karma meter? Like, how good/bad of a person are you, and should that be visible for the player to see? The karma thing will serve as the decider of[/color] the ending, to some extent.

Heck no! The moment you have a visible karma meter you just make players want to game the system, and all you start to color all of your choices as strictly black and white. Hell if you have any karma system at all it should be really really subtle, possibly multidimensional beyond one axis, and framed in an entirely different light form simple good and evil. Like for example, what about something that measures cooperation vs self interest and/or idealism vs practicality, or something like that anyway. Maybe measure your levels of paranoia, violent actions, emotional stability and such to determine your level of mental health, not quite a simple "sanity meter" but something that reflects your actions and slightly changes your endings and interaction with people. Edited December 11, 2014 by KilloZapit