Power-scales too high?

[Lord Vectra 414]

Do you think after a certain point, characters in a game will be too powerful? By powerful, I mean beyond Dragon Ball Z. Meaning, a game full of Beerus' or for better terms, a game full of galaxy-busters. 

 

At a certain point, does it just become too much exaggeration within a game?

[devonm0 37]

No matter what, my answer is yes.  Even if you're talking about absolute power, which can technically be as high as you want, as long as there is a good challenge to be had with said degree of power, raising that to the nth degree only to raise other powers to the nth degree to maintain balance accomplishes nothing.  As for relative power, which is a scale of one character's power compared to others, it can more obviously only go so high before it becomes ridiculous, since after a certain point there is no longer anything to be had from the game except what fun can be had destroying an entire colony of monsters with a single attack.  So yeah, my answer is definitely yes.  In fact I think that's why Toriyama stopped scaling dragon ball characters after the scouters were destroyed, since you brought that topic up, albeit in passing.

Edited September 30, 2015 by devonm0

[+ Chaosian 617]

My answer is no. By the end of the next Fallout, I want my character to be destroying the fabric of reality with the bullets that are coming out of their rusty gun. I must be the absolute pinnacle of all existence, and my will must be the law of the universe.

Maybe this is what you're looking for? Or maybe this would be more accurate?

[devonm0 37]

Destroying the fabric of reality?  With a bullet?  Sorry, but there's a difference between an absurdly powerful character and an unassuming weapon of mass destruction.  Also, with how realistic so many people are looking for the games they play to be, I doubt the laws of reality would ever become that distorted, no matter what the circumstances.  I don't mean to attack your opinion, I simply felt the urge to say something.

 

More to the point, such a grossly overpowered character would take the fun out of continuing to play, no matter what the game.

Edited September 30, 2015 by devonm0

[+ Chaosian 617]

I get that sarcasm doesn't really translate well through text, but you don't think my following statements contradicted the ridiculousness of the previous one at all?

Edited September 30, 2015 by Chaosian

[devonm0 37]

Oh, sarcasm.  Sorry, I'm not that well versed with it anyway, so I might not have caught on even if you were here speaking to me and I could here your voice.

[Kayzee 4,032]

Well, I think the real question is what does that kind of power level mean in terms of gameplay? Do you have some sort of Spore-like thing where you gradually can effect things on ever grander a scale? I mean if you can actually start blowing up galaxies, I wanna see what that kind of power actually means. I wanna see whole galaxies in the game filled with planets and life forms and things to interact with. I want you to be able to zoom in to a happy little family living on a planet somewhere in the galaxy you target. I wanna see the kind of scale that kind of destruction really entails. Conflict is always being hyped up in stories in these grand ridiculous terms. I mean I love me some Gurren Lagann, but basically the whole point of that series was how silly out of control serial escalation is. Now if you wanna do a procedural generation thing and actually go through the bother of having that sort of interactivity like Spore did, then that kind of thing might be interesting. Otherwise, it's kinda meaningless overblown hyperbole isn't it?

[xoferew 261]

I'm thinking of a game like Katamari Damacy.  On some levels you start rolling up pushpins, and then you can end up rolling up planets.  The stages are enjoyable in different ways.  After I've rolled up some planets I always want to go back to rolling up the kids in the schoolyard.  It's fun to make your ball bigger within the level, but a level that starts with a bigger ball isn't more satisfying than one that starts small.  I guess I'm saying, scale your game however you want, but make each tier of power interesting and rewarding in its own way.

[+ Takeo212 1,079]

It would depend.

My best, yet worst habit in any RPG is that fact I grind. Alot.

In Bravely Default, I began imemdiately leveling my characters and their job classes to a considerate level and the bosses became fairly easy.

However, if you wish for the end game where the character can gain several "god-like" strengths, then all I can recommend is a counter to that.

 

In alot of games, (I'll use FFX as an example) there are quite a few after-game challenges.

Mainly, in this case, being dark versions of the aeons you could use in game. These Aeons were OP as f**k though and the player had to go to major lengths to max out and fight them. Even with a max character though, the bosses simply became evenly matched. Hitting max damage in single hits, ect made them a pain, but also a challenge for people who have gotten to strong for the games enemies.

 

It would depend though on how you gain your stats in your game. I assume through battling, but are the evented? or random? Is grinding a thing in your game?

One way or another, a character can become OP if levels are involved. Unless you expect the player to be max level by the end boss, which usually isn't the case.

 

So my answer is Yes. A character can be to strong and exaggerated, but that depends entirely on the player structure and equipment.

If you feel you made the character to strong at the end game, then add some extra challenges in. Add hidden bosses and dungeons. Maybe add passwords into sections of the game that later unlock hidden locations that have better gear and stronger enemies. Being to strong and exaggerated isn't always a bad thing if implemented well~

[Cymiril 80]

Well, I think the real question is what does that kind of power level mean in terms of gameplay? Do you have some sort of Spore-like thing where you gradually can effect things on ever grander a scale? I mean if you can actually start blowing up galaxies, I wanna see what that kind of power actually means. I wanna see whole galaxies in the game filled with planets and life forms and things to interact with. I want you to be able to zoom in to a happy little family living on a planet somewhere in the galaxy you target. I wanna see the kind of scale that kind of destruction really entails. Conflict is always being hyped up in stories in these grand ridiculous terms. I mean I love me some Gurren Lagann, but basically the whole point of that series was how silly out of control serial escalation is. Now if you wanna do a procedural generation thing and actually go through the bother of having that sort of interactivity like Spore did, then that kind of thing might be interesting. Otherwise, it's kinda meaningless overblown hyperbole isn't it?

 

But with Gurren Lagann, it's not really that out of control compared to the enemies; for every new more powerful enemy, Gurren Lagann scales up. And Super Galaxy Dai-Gurren really isn't any more powerful than it needs to be, at the last battle with the Anti-Spiral the two fighters are pretty evenly matched. When someone starts throwing galaxies like shurikens, you've got to have a certain level of power to deal with that.

 

I think that's the main thing to look out for: If your main character or party are just reaching a power level to be on par with the current threat, or if they are just becoming over powered for no reason.

[Kayzee 4,032]

But with Gurren Lagann, it's not really that out of control compared to the enemies; for every new more powerful enemy, Gurren Lagann scales up. And Super Galaxy Dai-Gurren really isn't any more powerful than it needs to be, at the last battle with the Anti-Spiral the two fighters are pretty evenly matched. When someone starts throwing galaxies like shurikens, you've got to have a certain level of power to deal with that.

 

I think that's the main thing to look out for: If your main character or party are just reaching a power level to be on par with the current threat, or if they are just becoming over powered for no reason.

That wasn't really my point. My point was that casually throwing galaxies around is extremely silly. By that point in the series all sense of scale is lost and you just watch robots do cool things. You don't think about what that kind of power really means. And Gurren Lagann actually does a better job then most in that regard. I mean anyone remember the attack from Final Fantasy 7 where the Final Boss destroys the solar system? It's silly. It's just a long elaborate over the top animation that really hardly does anything to you let alone the actual world. Gurren Lagann's final battle is also silly. Massive scale conflict goes on without any real impact or meaning. But Gurren Lagann knows it's silly, and does it's best to make it awesome anyway. Most other stories do not and just end up silly.

 

There is really nothing about the conflict in Gurren Lagann's plot that necessitates it to go to that kind of extreme scale. It could have all been resolved without leaving the planet. It's a simple philosophical debate in the end. Gurren Lagann just keeps escalating and poshing to new ludicrous levels purely for the spectacle and the crazy-awesomeness of it all, and can get away with it because it doesn't take it's self too seriously. It's supposed to be ludicrous and silly. It's supposed to be a pure spectacle that you are just along for the ride for. And it's great for that.

 

But I am skeptical about doing that kinda think in a game. Spore manages a bit I heard, though I never played it. Katamari Damacy as mentioned above is another example, kinda. But unless the player starts with battling level one slimes and is literally facing billions of space fleets and planetary armadas by the end, I donno how you can maintain that sort of power creep to those levels in a game.

Edited September 30, 2015 by KilloZapit

[Point08 219]

KZ sums it up pretty well in his last post imho. I've never been a fan of "SuperMeteorAttack" that destroys the world, and then does 1200 damage to some sort of sentient fungus that I happen to be fighting. I'm fine with some flashy stuff, and some over-the-top stuff, but I'm with most of the others on feeling there is a limit before it just gets silly. Unless, as KZ mentioned, there is a legitimate reason. If your character becomes some space-traversing god and is fighting against a sentient black hole, sure, hitting with a multi-star (star as in giant, burning balls of gas and plasma) attack is reasonable.

[Cymiril 80]

 

But with Gurren Lagann, it's not really that out of control compared to the enemies; for every new more powerful enemy, Gurren Lagann scales up. And Super Galaxy Dai-Gurren really isn't any more powerful than it needs to be, at the last battle with the Anti-Spiral the two fighters are pretty evenly matched. When someone starts throwing galaxies like shurikens, you've got to have a certain level of power to deal with that.

 

I think that's the main thing to look out for: If your main character or party are just reaching a power level to be on par with the current threat, or if they are just becoming over powered for no reason.

That wasn't really my point. My point was that casually throwing galaxies around is extremely silly. By that point in the series all sense of scale is lost and you just watch robots do cool things. You don't think about what that kind of power really means. And Gurren Lagann actually does a better job then most in that regard. I mean anyone remember the attack from Final Fantasy 7 where the Final Boss destroys the solar system? It's silly. It's just a long elaborate over the top animation that really hardly does anything to you let alone the actual world. Gurren Lagann's final battle is also silly. Massive scale conflict goes on without any real impact or meaning. But Gurren Lagann knows it's silly, and does it's best to make it awesome anyway. Most other stories do not and just end up silly.

 

There is really nothing about the conflict in Gurren Lagann's plot that necessitates it to go to that kind of extreme scale. It could have all been resolved without leaving the planet. It's a simple philosophical debate in the end. Gurren Lagann just keeps escalating and poshing to new ludicrous levels purely for the spectacle and the crazy-awesomeness of it all, and can get away with it because it doesn't take it's self too seriously. It's supposed to be ludicrous and silly. It's supposed to be a pure spectacle that you are just along for the ride for. And it's great for that.

 

But I am skeptical about doing that kinda think in a game. Spore manages a bit I heard, though I never played it. Katamari Damacy as mentioned above is another example, kinda. But unless the player starts with battling level one slimes and is literally facing billions of space fleets and planetary armadas by the end, I donno how you can maintain that sort of power creep to those levels in a game.

 

 

I guess that was my point, in a way. You have to maintain a reason for the power creep. If the right balance isn't maintained, then huge power upgrades just seems silly and pointless. It could be done in a game, but using something as simple as RPG Maker probably isn't going to work to that kind of scale. I totally agree that it would be iffy without the right story and opponents.

 

But I do disagree about Gurren Lagann. Everything was absolutely necessary. Because: Who the hell do you think I am? Believe in the me that believes in you.

[Lord Vectra 414]

Interesting, I like all of your opinions. I'll put it in Consideration.

[Kayzee 4,032]

I guess that was my point, in a way. You have to maintain a reason for the power creep. If the right balance isn't maintained, then huge power upgrades just seems silly and pointless. It could be done in a game, but using something as simple as RPG Maker probably isn't going to work to that kind of scale. I totally agree that it would be iffy without the right story and opponents.

 

But I do disagree about Gurren Lagann. Everything was absolutely necessary. Because: Who the hell do you think I am? Believe in the me that believes in you.

 

Now I agree Gurren Lagann wouldn't be Gurren Lagann if it didn't go the whole way like that, sure. I am not saying it should have dialed it back. But it's still silly. Delightfully silly. The silliness is a good thing here. Gurren Lagann wouldn't have worked without it. But you can't go around assuming all stories can be Gurren Lagann.

 

But it isn't a matter of balance at all, it's a matter of scale. Giving a hero the power to blow up galaxies to defeat a villain that also has that power means nothing unless you can actually get across what that kind of scale means. Let's look at a example that does not handle this kind of thing as well then. Like say, Dragonball Z for example. Now I am not saying Dragonball Z is a bad story or that it isn't entertaining. I am just saying having beings that could probably blow up galaxies (didn't buu do that at one point in the backstory or something?) at the end, and could at least blow up planets and stars, all decide to land on a planet and engage in fisticuffs is very very silly. There is just no reason for those beings with power of that scale to fight in that way. You are given these kinds of overblown levels that mean nothing. Dragonball tried to go from a silly martial arts anime to a sprawling sci-fi epic of ever greater stakes, but it didn't ever increase the scale of conflict to match. Frieza was basically a interplanetary conquer, and his own death star to boot. After that, casually destroying planets should have been no big deal. Cell I admit was just toying with the heros with his little tournament, and Buu did end up killing almost everyone on earth with one attack and did destroy the planet, but still in the end they both boiled down to one on one fisticuff matches. They had all these powerful beings but really didn't do much with them.

 

You know actually, come to think of it, when there comes to games there are some villains in RPGs that are fully capable of all this mass destruction on a level you as the player can never match that you end up defeating in the end. Lavos from Chrono Trigger, Kefka from FF6, maybe Exdeath from FF5... Just something to think about. 

[Cymiril 80]

 

I guess that was my point, in a way. You have to maintain a reason for the power creep. If the right balance isn't maintained, then huge power upgrades just seems silly and pointless. It could be done in a game, but using something as simple as RPG Maker probably isn't going to work to that kind of scale. I totally agree that it would be iffy without the right story and opponents.

 

But I do disagree about Gurren Lagann. Everything was absolutely necessary. Because: Who the hell do you think I am? Believe in the me that believes in you.

 

Now I agree Gurren Lagann wouldn't be Gurren Lagann if it didn't go the whole way like that, sure. I am not saying it should have dialed it back. But it's still silly. Delightfully silly. The silliness is a good thing here. Gurren Lagann wouldn't have worked without it. But you can't go around assuming all stories can be Gurren Lagann.

 

But it isn't a matter of balance at all, it's a matter of scale. Giving a hero the power to blow up galaxies to defeat a villain that also has that power means nothing unless you can actually get across what that kind of scale means. Let's look at a example that does not handle this kind of thing as well then. Like say, Dragonball Z for example. Now I am not saying Dragonball Z is a bad story or that it isn't entertaining. I am just saying having beings that could probably blow up galaxies (didn't buu do that at one point in the backstory or something?) at the end, and could at least blow up planets and stars, all decide to land on a planet and engage in fisticuffs is very very silly. There is just no reason for those beings with power of that scale to fight in that way. You are given these kinds of overblown levels that mean nothing. Dragonball tried to go from a silly martial arts anime to a sprawling sci-fi epic of ever greater stakes, but it didn't ever increase the scale of conflict to match. Frieza was basically a interplanetary conquer, and his own death star to boot. After that, casually destroying planets should have been no big deal. Cell I admit was just toying with the heros with his little tournament, and Buu did end up killing almost everyone on earth with one attack and did destroy the planet, but still in the end they both boiled down to one on one fisticuff matches. They had all these powerful beings but really didn't do much with them.

 

You know actually, come to think of it, when there comes to games there are some villains in RPGs that are fully capable of all this mass destruction on a level you as the player can never match that you end up defeating in the end. Lavos from Chrono Trigger, Kefka from FF6, maybe Exdeath from FF5... Just something to think about. 

 

 

You're definitely right, I was agreeing with you the whole time, really, just to make that clear.

 

As far as "scale" vs. "balance" goes, I think they go hand-in-hand: Scale in media means to me to me how encompassing the story is, and how it's driven. I feel balance would refer to how that scale is presented in the work, what it means.

 

I was just stressing that Gurren Lagann is a good example of overwhelming power just for the sake of it; the only thing I disagreed with you about was that I don't think the power levels in Gurren Lagann are "meaningless" or "unnecessary". Silly? Yes. Way over-the-top? Yes. But every single bit in necessary, because that's the kind of story it is. It wouldn't be the same if everything was solved on the planet. And that's what I mean, each story is different, so you have to take it on a case-by-case basis. Basically just that the scale has to match what the characters can do. World destroying abilities that aren't used to destroy worlds on a regular basis aren't needed. But if you have to fight an entity bigger than a galaxy, that will requires abilities (or a vehicle) to stand a fighting chance. I know you mainly were trying to explain that it would be really hard to do in any game, let alone most amateur games, but you can't discount that type of scale entirely.

 

I wasn't trying to argue or be difficult, and I'm sorry if I came across that way.

[Kayzee 4,032]

I think I should clarify: I think the "plot" of Gurren Lagann could be satisfied without going to such extremes... by which I mean if taken purely from the perspective of the basic concepts and characters. Going to the scale where you are throwing galaxies around doesn't really advance the plot in any way. But Gurren Lagann's "plot" really isn't all that original or memorable compared to it's over all impact as a work of art. And for that, going as far as it could was absolutely necessary. Because here is the thing... Gurren Lagann... is basically a satire. Throwing galaxies around is a joke.

 

Oh don't get me wrong, it's awesome. But, and I hate using this word but I can't think of any better way to say it, it's supposed to be ironically awesome. In a way. It's supposed to be so over the top and silly, conform to every dumb anime stereotype, make the laws of physics it's bitch, and then go even further then any anime has ever dared to go, and then keep going after that. And that's why it works, because it isn't dumb pandering, it explores it's themes and ideas in ways nothing has ever dared to do before, and rides it to the very end and then screams "AND THAT'S HOW YOU ANIME BITCH!" before riding off into an exploding galaxy on a flaming motorcycle. And it was glorious.

 

And don't think it means I think it doesn't have touching moments and an important message either, and that it's over the topness didn't sorta help with that. It examines a heck of a lot of anime ideas and reconstructs them the same way Neon Genesis Evangelion deconstructed them. It packs a heck of a lot of meaning into a story that is mostly just highly consecrated crazy awesome. It has things to say beyond just over the top nonsense. It's a interesting story and It's a inspiring story. That doesn't change the fact that it was silly as well. It's a story about anime and mechs for fans of anime and mechs that are used to silly, and it uses it's silly in new and fun ways, but it's still silly.

 

For most stories, I just think inventing grand overblown conflicts like that is extremely silly and unnecessary half the time, because quite frankly the author usually just can't wrap their heads around them. There is a trope for that, it's called Sci-Fi Writers Have No Sense of Scale (Warning: Blah blah tvtropes blah). How big is a person compared to a planet? How big is a planet compared to a solar system? How big is a solar system compared to a galaxy? Can you really think at that scale? Can you really convoy a story at that scale? Gurren Lagann got away with it because it kinda didn't need to, and you probably aren't gonna make another Gurren Lagann.

Edited October 1, 2015 by KilloZapit

[Cymiril 80]

But... I get all that. I agree. Just saying they did it right... which you keep agreeing with. Yes, it's ironically awesome, you act like I didn't pick up on the "tongue placed firmly in cheek" aspect of it. Yes it's a parody, I've seen enough anime to pick up tropes right away. I know all the upgrades are a joke, and it's done just because they can. But are you thinking of any of that while watching it? No, you're watching big robots fight each other in a more than fantastical manner, and it's awesome, no matter how silly it gets. The first time you see it, you're not criticizing it, you're just watching in amazement. That's why it's OK, and that's why I say it was done right. Because the extremeness is why it was made.

 

Will someone make another Gurren Lagann? Probably not, no. Will I? Hell no, I'm not that good; but I wasn't talking about me anyway. Is it possible with the right elements and talent, and everything coming together exactly the right way? Well, yeah. Of course it's possible. No one can say for a certainty that it won't or can't, but, yes, it would be very improbable. Just not impossible, that's all.

[Kayzee 4,032]

That's true with everything though. :3 I am just giving advice I hope might be useful, not trying to discourage people from trying.

[xoferew 261]

On a related (I hope) topic I don't like it when the enemy has created an environment that is overwhelmingly deadly except for all the puzzles being solveable of course, and then you are standing on some magical platform over a bottomless pit for the boss fight, having already perhaps traversed dozens of platforms that tipped over or melted away.  Why doesn't the boss just flip over/delete the platform you are on now?  There's no need for the fight at all.   Give me an in game reason why the enemy seems to have so much power that they don't care to use, or why my little party is so apparently powerful that they would walk into a certain deathtrap tippy platform in order to poke the enemy with swords.