I have an Idea....

[Black0Seraph 1]

I wanted to make grinding for levels a bit tough (so to speak). Let's say that you're in a dungeon and you're grinding for levels and you are taking to long to complete the dungeon...the next battle you encounter will be with a monster that you've never seen before and it's level will be higher than the party's...

 

What do you guys think?

I'm sorry if I didn't explain it clearly.

(It's one of my weak points)

(I've taken this idea from EO4)

[Yuugami 252]

Are you talking about FOEs? If so, I would say that the idea isn't very good to begin with. FOEs worked in the context of Etrian Odyssey because you could actively avoid battling them. If you're just running into a strong monster randomly, that's just a sign of poor game design and balance because there's nothing a player can do to avoid the battle.

 

Dungeon crawlers like Strange Journey and Etrian Odyssey do this with their mechanics. In the former, the strong enemies only appear if you're scanning an unknown enemy, which means you have the active decision to not scan an unknown object, knowing you might end up fighting an enemy. As for FOEs, they move every turn you move (on map and in combat), but you because you can see them, and because they follow a set path, you can learn to avoid them. You should never be punishing players for grinding levels (just grinding itself is a punishment).

[Black0Seraph 1]

I wasn't putting it into my game. I just wanted some input but you're right it is a bad idea.

[Punio 31]

I can see myself running through a dungeon, exploring every nook and cranny. All of a sudden, this beastly monster jumps out of nowhere and creams my team. And of course I didn't get a chance to save my progress before the random difficult encounter out of left field. The idea is interesting, however, if it is truly random and unannounced it is completely unfair to the player without a way of avoiding it.

[Black0Seraph 1]

That is very true

[magic2345 252]

Perhaps you can give hints when it's nearing the time limit where the strong enemy appears, like in Persona 3 (and 4 maybe, not sure). In P3, if you stay long enough on a floor (or some other condition that I don't know), a very strong mini-boss will appear and chase you. But, before it appears, one of the characters would say, "I hear chains...." and then you hear an ominous chain sfx. Of course, you'd get good items if you're able to win. This way, the player will have some time to get the hell out of the dungeon.

[Black0Seraph 1]

That sounds more doable

[Guyver 65]

I have something to this effect in my current project. I'm using Hime's encounter conditions to force some troops to spawn when conditions are met in several dungeons. Most of the time it's just basic stuff, like party level and certain variables. For example, the slimes in the first part of my game go to level 7 max. If the partys average level is 4, they get a new spell instead of just basic attacks. If they average level of the party is 10 or higher, they'll get another skill and they can combine to form a bigger slime. Some enemies will gain various buffs or skills depending on a certain characters stats as well. My game is level gated, but I do it mainly to throw in some surprises and throw people for a loop. That way when you go back to a previous area to grind for levels or loot you can still have a bit of fun.

 

In one area of the game, if you fight so many battles and knock your variable counter high enough you'll end up facing a mini boss like your idea. The difference is that it scales to your highest party members level, rather than being level 27 to 31.

[Yuugami 252]

Perhaps you can give hints when it's nearing the time limit where the strong enemy appears, like in Persona 3 (and 4 maybe, not sure). In P3, if you stay long enough on a floor (or some other condition that I don't know), a very strong mini-boss will appear and chase you. But, before it appears, one of the characters would say, "I hear chains...." and then you hear an ominous chain sfx. Of course, you'd get good items if you're able to win. This way, the player will have some time to get the hell out of the dungeon.

 

 

I don't remember the exact conditions, but if you're talking about the Reaper, there's several conditions for him to appear in Persona 3, staying on the floor for too long being one of them, and others involving the Shadow population on that particular floor, whether there are gold hands in that floor, whether you drew the Reaper's card during Shuffle Time, etc. and even then, he operates like a F.O.E. from Etrian Odyssey - you can see him on your map, and he's very avoidable. Hell, you can just go to the next floor and return to the previous floor and he'll be gone. 

 

As for Persona 4, he appears when you open up 21 chests - the next trapped chest you open will bring out the Reaper, but this counter can be reset if you don't end up opening the trapped chest (like, the 22nd chest is a normal chest, instead of a trapped one), and you know the Reaper is on the floor because of the chain sounds. The counter is also reset when you move to another floor after entering a floor with a Reaper chest inside of it. Plus, when you do open the chest with the Reaper inside, the game asks you twice to reconsider before you open it. 

 

I actually really like the way they did it in Persona 4 - challenging a powerful foe and getting the best equips for defeating him is very rewarding, but you can also tackle it in your own discretion.

[amerk 1,122]

Make the monster easy to run from, but maybe allow the player a chance to win against it with very good strategy, and receive a reward if they do. Otherwise, the best way to avoid grinding is to skyrocket the EXP needed for the next level, when players are at the threshold of the Level you want them to be, until they get to the next dungeon.

 

So in Dungeon 1, if monsters drop about 5 EXP (and Level 1 = 15 EXP, Level 2 = 45 EXP, Level 3 = 75 EXP, Level 4 = 130 EXP, and Level 5 = 300 EXP) they can probably comfortably get to Level 3 before the end of the dungeon, and Level 4 for those who want to push the extra mile. The boss fight should be winnable with strategy at Level 3 while still posting a bit of a challenge at Level 4.

 

In Dungeon 2, monsters may drop higher amounts of EXP, say around 50 or so (Level 5 = 300 EXP, Level 6 = 600 EXP, Level 7 = 1000 EXP, and Level 8 = 3000 EXP). This way they can get to Level 6 fairly easy, and those who only grinded to Level 3 in the previous dungeon can quickly catch up with the Level 4/5 grinders in the next dungeon, while the Level 4/5 grinders will be a bit hardpressed grinding for anything after Level 7 in Dungeon 2.

 

In Dungeon 3, monsters would drop around 500 EXP, and the cycle continues.

 

This way you balance the game out so it's easy to gain the first few levels in each dungeon with relative ease without requiring mindless grinding, while also circumventing the heavy grinders from getting too far ahead of themselves. I'd speculate not very many people would want to grind for 300 EXP on monsters that drop around 5 EXP. That's 60 total monsters to fight to level up. And even in cases where there are more than 1 monster per battle (let's say 3 monsters in a battle each dropping around 5 EXP) that's still around 20 battles minimum, which will be a lot higher considering not every battle will probably have more than 1 or 2 enemies at a time.

[Nirwanda 323]

But wouldn't a more powerful monster give more exp and therefore be a bigger incentive to grind? I mean, unless it gave the same or less experience than the regular mobs.

@Yuugami I didn't even know the reaper WAS in P4, then again I only played through it once and with no walkthrough.

[amerk 1,122]

@Nirwanda - Unless he intended it to be either:

 

A) - An impossible or near impossible battle for the player or

B )- A hard battle that drops next to nothing.

 

In either case, a random encounter like that is not a good idea. It is fine to have a difficult rare enemy that the player must grind to find and be easily avoidable (if touch) or easy to run from, but I've never liked the idea of punishing a player for actually playing the game, which is why I feel a higher curve for EXP is probably the best way to deter grinding, so long as it balances out in the next area.

 

Also, once a player hits the threshold of a level for a particular dungeon, it's also a good idea to either:

 

A)  Remove encounters from that dungeon or

B ) Remove EXP from those enemies in that dungeon but allow players to continue to grind them for monster drops and gold.

 

Look at some commercial rpg's, as well. A few RM commercial games (like Dawn's Light and Eternal Eden) had touch encounters in dungeons, but never allowed monster respawns. So once you fought a monster, that monster never came back. Bonus loot was given at the end of the dungeon if you fought all the monsters in that dungeon.

 

Edit: Silly B's being changed to smilies.

[lonequeso 1,921]

I can think of two good ways to limit grinding. The first requires all enemies to be visible on screen. You have a set number of enemies that will never respawn.

It makes level grinding impossible. Dragon Age 2 did this. The only way to get extra XP was to complete sidequests/objectives.

 

The second is to grant XP on a curve. This will require an Enemy Levels script/plugin. The higher the player's level is compared to the enemy, the less XP they receive. You can set a limit to the penalty (say 75%) or award 0 XP if the

difference is high enough. This works in the eeverse as well. The higher an enemy's level is compared to the player, the more XP they gain. Personally, I like this style more because it rewards the player for taking on more powerful enemies abd penalizes them if they try to exploit weaker ones.

[Kayzee 4,032]

This sort of reminds me how like in the Mystery Dungeon games and some other roguelikes, spending too long on a floor will summon a nearly invincible monster to spawn and start to chase you down. Thing is, you are very clearly warned when time is running out first and you can just avoid them. Personally I rather use different anti-grinding style measures, like needing to find food or simply making monsters give less experience as you out level them.