vx ace Magic days (Plot and game mechanics)

[lonequeso 1,921]

Yeah, you've ranted many a time about stories in games. The fact of the matter is people like having stories in games. If they didn't they wouldn't buy them and developers would stop adding stories. You are in the vast vaaast minority here. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's wrong. 

You ramble on like it's impossible to create a game that excels at both when there's a ocean of examples proving otherwise. Everyone else added 2 + 2 and got 4 yet you keep insisting it's 5. And why does every topic have to end up in a rant that really doesn't have to with the topic at hand? 

[FAGC 9]

@Lonequeso
I was feeling the same, i think @KilloZapit was taking the chat off topic, i created this thread to know if people liked the idea of the story and the gameplay, the test is only a little portion of it, maybe important in the gameplay, yes beacause you select the race with it. But it does not make the total. 

 

I want to leave the off topic chat please, get back to topic and let space for more users to leave their opinions about the story and gamplay of the game. Tell me about the money issue, or the features i try to implement, what about the races? do you people think using the three basic calsses is a good choice? crafting? anything you think about it.

[Kayzee 4,032]

I never said it was impossible to excel at both, I just am just saying it's really hard. My point is, it doesn't fill me with confidence when the first major important choice you have that could determine how the whole rest of the game will play could be more complicated then it should be for story reasons. Unless it's mostly cosmetic, which wouldn't be a bad idea actually. And that's the last I will say on the matter, sorry for cluttering things.

 

I should try and find more productive things to say anyway, so...

 

Though the whole Warrior/Mage/Thief thing reminds me of the Quest for Glory game series, which I love. The Quest for Glory games are a pretty good example of taking multiple classes and designing puzzles and tasks to be solved by all of them in different ways actually. Also a pretty good example of a point-and-click adventure that doesn't rely on rubbing items on things to solve puzzles, but I don't think you sound like you are going to do that type of puzzle. Worth mentioning though I guess.

 

I have no idea how crafting or shops is supposed to work without seeing it's implementation really. I could imagine a game like this working just as well as a pure dungeon crawler or puzzle game really. Does crafting, buying/selling, and possibly doing minigame jobs really add to the experience? I think grinding should be avoided myself. Hey, how about this? Instead of being able to endlessly farm gold, you earn metals for doing little achievement-like tasks and can unlock/buy stuff with them? Hmmm... maybe that's a bad idea. As for crafting... I have mixed feelings about it in general. I think it works better in survival games where gathering limited resources is the whole point of the game, but eh.

[lonequeso 1,921]

warrior/Mage/rogue thief (when did that change, and why?  ) is kinda the holy trinity for RPG Classes. That's definitely a great place to start. From there you can decide if you want sub classes i.e. Cleric/Black Mage or add another type. Honestly, pretty much any class you can conceptualize fits into those base 3. Hybrid classes are kinda the outliers, but a lot of times a game will have a well rounded character that is good with both weapons and magic within one of the three. I kept them separate in game at least as far as using both stamina and mana because it would've made things overly convulted the way mine is set up. I do have a couple mage classes that can use swords and heavy armor though.

 

Crafting items is fine. Even a very basic system can work. I created one in my game purely through eventing. I would highly recommend using a script though if it's going to be anything more than a very basic system. 

[FAGC 9]

 @KilloZapit

Though the whole Warrior/Mage/Thief thing reminds me of the Quest for Glory game series, which I love. The Quest for Glory games are a pretty good example of taking multiple classes and designing puzzles and tasks to be solved by all of them in different ways actually. Also a pretty good example of a point-and-click adventure that doesn't rely on rubbing items on things to solve puzzles, but I don't think you sound like you are going to do that type of puzzle. Worth mentioning though I guess.

To give an example, encountering a rift in a cave can be solved in many ways:

 

The warrior may encounter a tree to take down and use it as a bridge. (Weapon class skill)

The mage can use the "Ligth Bridge" scroll (Crafted skill)

The thief is a rabbit himself, so he only jumps over the rift. (Race skill)

 

These are the three solutions for a puzzle, you have the skill granted by a weapon, you crafted a tool or have a race ability to solve it.

 

I have no idea how crafting or shops is supposed to work without seeing it's implementation really. I could imagine a game like this working just as well as a pure dungeon crawler or puzzle game really. Does crafting, buying/selling, and possibly doing minigame jobs really add to the experience? I think grinding should be avoided myself. Hey, how about this? Instead of being able to endlessly farm gold, you earn metals for doing little achievement-like tasks and can unlock/buy stuff with them? Hmmm... maybe that's a bad idea. As for crafting... I have mixed feelings about it in general. I think it works better in survival games where gathering limited resources is the whole point of the game, but eh.

Giving another example here:
Lets say that you are a mage wolf that entered a dungeon, and the first thing you encounter is the rift of the previous example, but you´re not a race that can jump or fly and the weapon you have doesn't takes the tree down. You can read your grimoire and click! The "Light Bridge" scroll is there for you to craft! But NO!!! You need blueberries to smash and use as ink for the scroll to work. In the nearby area blueberries don´t grow, and you have no money to buy them, but HEY! you crafted some potions that you don´t need and they value a lot! You can go to the market in the city, sell them to a merchant, buy blueberries from another one and craft the scroll by yoursellf!

 

This is a very good example of what i want, people will always have the solution, maybe not at hand, but is there for them to be found!

 

@Lonequeso

warrior/Mage/rogue thief (when did that change, and why?  ) is kinda the holy trinity for RPG Classes. That's definitely a great place to start. From there you can decide if you want sub classes i.e. Cleric/Black Mage or add another type. Honestly, pretty much any class you can conceptualize fits into those base 3. Hybrid classes are kinda the outliers, but a lot of times a game will have a well rounded character that is good with both weapons and magic within one of the three. I kept them separate in game at least as far as using both stamina and mana because it would've made things overly convulted the way mine is set up. I do have a couple mage classes that can use swords and heavy armor though.

There are not going to be hybrid or subclasses, it's going to be the three basic classes.

 

Crafting items is fine. Even a very basic system can work. I created one in my game purely through eventing. I would highly recommend using a script though if it's going to be anything more than a very basic system.

It's going to be very simple. The recipes can be found everywhere, and they go by difficulty, level 1 will have 1 ingredient needed, maybe 2 but easy to collect. level 2 recipes are 2 ingredients or 3 with a higher level in the crafting area. And etc. Not much of a compication.

Edited May 3, 2017 by FAGC

[lonequeso 1,921]

Are you going with the classic theme or the in vogue rogue for one of them? (totally rhymed there   )

The crafting seems simple enough. You could event the whole thing. I forgot to account for the fact that scripts look prettier and have built in menu screens.

 

So all the puzzles will have multiple solutions? Makes sense considering how your classes are built. It sounds like the MC is the only party member. Is that right? Reminds me Quest 64 only more puzzle-y

[FAGC 9]

@Lonequeso

Are you going with the classic theme or the in vogue rogue for one of them? (totally rhymed there   )

I wish i know what are you talking about u.u

 

The crafting seems simple enough. You could event the whole thing. I forgot to account for the fact that scripts look prettier and have built in menu screens.

It will be simple, you reach to the crafting station, activate it, and it will give you a list of the recipes you allready know. Selecting them will tell if you have the ingredients. An "Craft" button will craft the item for you.

 

So all the puzzles will have multiple solutions? Makes sense considering how your classes are built. It sounds like the MC is the only party member. Is that right? Reminds me Quest 64 only more puzzle-y

Quest 64!!!! i love that game, is one of the games that inspired me to make one of my own. Yes, the MC is the only party member (unless the game changes to a Tactic Battle System, wich is possible)

Edited May 3, 2017 by FAGC

[Kayzee 4,032]

Yeah, Quest for Glory did basically the same kind of thing. Fighters bust through with muscle, mages cast spells, thieves sneak around or uses wits or acrobatics.

 

The real problem with shopping and buying is balance. Because it's way too easy to invalidate other parts of the game by making crafting and shopping give you overpowered stuff or have it be too useless or annoying to deal with. Crafting is neat and all sometimes, but many games turn it into busywork. Shopping in RPGs often ends up being just a way to splurge on healing items and upgrading your gear every town. Now it seems you want to avoid that and make it involve more of a real economy, and I like that. But it's kinda tricky to do. Especially when crafting is involved. It's way way too easy to find some exploitative loop of buying and crafting to get all the money you need. It's a really interesting gameplay problem really, and one I have not really seen that many good real solutions. I would probably be tempted to either go overboard and code some complicated economic system of supply and demand or get rid of shopping altogether really (maybe using a barter system instead). But it's probably not worth worrying about that much.

[FAGC 9]

@KilloZapit

 

The real problem with shopping and buying is balance. Because it's way too easy to invalidate other parts of the game by making crafting and shopping give you overpowered stuff or have it be too useless or annoying to deal with. Crafting is neat and all sometimes, but many games turn it into busywork. Shopping in RPGs often ends up being just a way to splurge on healing items and upgrading your gear every town. Now it seems you want to avoid that and make it involve more of a real economy, and I like that. But it's kinda tricky to do. Especially when crafting is involved. It's way way too easy to find some exploitative loop of buying and crafting to get all the money you need. It's a really interesting gameplay problem really, and one I have not really seen that many good real solutions. I would probably be tempted to either go overboard and code some complicated economic system of supply and demand or get rid of shopping altogether really (maybe using a barter system instead). But it's probably not worth worrying about that much.

About the money, is a very simple thing, not all the merchant will buy you all the things, and not all the objects will be salable. Mostly those that are simple to craft, because maybe you craft a potion that only requieres 1 potato and 1 cup of milk, boom! you have 500 potions to sell in less than 40 minutes

[lonequeso 1,921]

Oops Auto-correct failed me back there.  "theme" was supposed to be "thief". Older RPGs had a trio of classes Warrior/Mage/Thief.  Not all of course, but this was normally that was the base. Somewhere along the line, people starting calling the thief a rogue instead. 

 

Balancing money is definitely tough. I'm not real good with number though so maybe it's easier for other people. Though I've played many RPG's where by the end of the game even the most expensive items are just a drop in the bucket. I always liked the gold/silver/copper system. 

It gives a feeling of accomplishment scraping together coppers to get a silver and then silver to finally get some gold.  Obviously, it doesn't add any actual value to the currency system, but i find it easier to break down prices in that format instead of having eleventy billion gold in my inventory.

[Kayzee 4,032]

There is also other elements that a lot of people take for granted. Like, how often can you craft? Does it take time or stamina? Do you want to simulate something like 'downtime' in tabletop RPGs where you can take x of your free time to craft stuff and sell it? Maybe start a business? I guess that's too complex for you though. Simple probably is best. Anyway, it might be better to do dungeons and combat first and worry about everything else after.

[FAGC 9]

@KilloZapit

 

There is also other elements that a lot of people take for granted. Like, how often can you craft? Does it take time or stamina? Do you want to simulate something like 'downtime' in tabletop RPGs where you can take x of your free time to craft stuff and sell it? Maybe start a business? I guess that's too complex for you though. Simple probably is best. Anyway, it might be better to do dungeons and combat first and worry about everything else after.

For crafting there will be levels requiered for every recipe, but no stamina or cooldown. And the dungeons will ask for higher levels of crafting as you advance in game. One thing i'm sure i never told was that before entering a dungeon you will be prompted with information about the level of the enemies and puzzles, some of them will tell you what kind of skills or difficulties you may encounter/need inside. Mostly because it will be a real headache to enter a dungeon and find in the last chamber that you don't have that skill required to continue. Also no warp points or teleports (there will be crafted ones but require a lot of mana to be used, so, one at a time)

[Kayzee 4,032]

Yeah, I don't know. I am a bit skeptical about how crafting will work out. It's kind of a feature too many games throw in just to have it and doesn't end up adding much or imbalances things. Then again, I can see how it would make some things more interesting too. Can't say without seeing the game in action.

 

Presenting all the info you need to the player in an easily understood way that doesn't spoil stuff too much might be hard really. It might be a good idea to design dungeons so that backtracking through them isn't to hard, any required skills are used early, and/or they are only unlocked once the skills they need are obtainable. I mean most Zelda dungeons sort of end up that way for example. They are often based around a central hub and require that you already have the items you need before getting very far in them or often even opening them at all. Of course Zelda has a mostly linear and easy to understand upgrade path so it isn't really the same.

[lonequeso 1,921]

 

 

 It's kind of a feature too many games throw in just to have it

hee hee! I did that!   I had a couple classes that just screamed 'We craft shit!" so they can. It is completely optional. You can easel complete the game and never craft a thing. You don't even have to unlock the classes. It is handy to be able to make potions and one time use battle items though, Those who do craft things will have a bit of an edge. It's a very minor feature.

 

In the game we're talking about it sounds like it's going to much more involved. Obviously balancing will be important (when is it not?), but the way you have it set up sounds interesting. While I don't really like getting info about the dungeon I'm entering, I dislike backtracking to get the right skill even more (flashbacks to Pokemon) *shudder* The latter is really just bad design. Like Killozapit said, The way Zelda does it is a happy medium. I don't know how well that set up would work in your game though. 

[FAGC 9]

@KilloZapit

Presenting all the info you need to the player in an easily understood way that doesn't spoil stuff too much might be hard really

I was thinking maybe presenting this as a sign outside the cave, castle, forest, etc. Like warning signs you can find in the real world. I don´t know, if there is sliding rocks, you see the sign for sliding rocks, if there is a rift, you see that sign, things like that.

 

I mean most Zelda dungeons sort of end up that way for example. They are often based around a central hub and require that you already have the items you need before getting very far in them or often even opening them at all

At the time you reach that dungeon, if you don´t have the required skill, is because you didn't craft it. You will never be prompted with a dungeon that requires a skill you can´t use, craft or obtain in a certain way.

 

@Lonequeso

In the game we're talking about it sounds like it's going to much more involved. Obviously balancing will be important (when is it not?), but the way you have it set up sounds interesting

Crafting will be the complement for those skills you can´t use or obtain. If your race doesn't give you the ability, your class weapons don´t give the skill, and you can´t buy your way out of the problem, you have to craft it.

 

I dislike backtracking to get the right skill even more (flashbacks to Pokemon) *shudder*

Too many flashbacks, i know what you mean. You had to talk to every npc in the towns, because if you didn't, you couldn't know what looser had the HM you needed to cut the f@°&ing tree.

Edited May 4, 2017 by FAGC

[Kayzee 4,032]

As a side note, I also have to say I don't like it when what abilities you have depend on your gear, at least in most games. There is nothing that annoys me more then needing to upgrade my gear and finding that none of the next tier gear has any good abilities, or visa versa. This can be mitigated by maybe having gear's stats be more flatly balanced and/or letting you upgrade gear to new tiers without changing the basic ability function of the type of gear. Also the fact that gear, and therefor abilities, has to be slotted in like that is annoying but in this game I can see it's function. Honestly though, there could be a good case to be made for not having gear give stats at all and maybe even not having any real level ups, turning the whole game into a puzzle game. How that would work out I am not sure.

[lonequeso 1,921]

Most- actually all the games I've played that have gear that grants abilities fall into one of two categories. Games like Final Fantasy Tactics and Tales of Vesperia allow you to master skills and thus you don't lose them when changing equipment. FF7 sorta did that with Materia, too. 

 

Other games like Dragon Age 3 grant small passive bonuses (heal on kill/faster stealth movement, chance to Poison/etc. They go away when switching gear, but the difference is usually pretty minimal. You just have to be wise about when to upgrade your armor. If you have a rare tier 1 armor with good stats and a passive bonus, you may not want to swap it for a basic Tier 2 item. Maybe the overall defense is higher, but you lose all the extra little stat boosts and that special ability. You can also craft gear fairly easily and there's a pretty good amount of options if you get your hands on the recipes so you can micromanage quite a bit. 

[FAGC 9]

Let's put an example for this:

 

In the case of the warrior, that has the crafting ability of the blacksmith, the recipes are for weapons only. Say you want a bronze sword with the "Spinning" skill. The recipe will tell you the ingredients for the sword: "3 bronze ingots + 2 wood planks". For the skill to be implemented you can add it by using a "Spinning" scroll. The scroll can be buyed from a merchant. If you want a weapon with higher stats, but the same skill, you will have to find the recipe for that weapon and add the skill to it.

In the case of the mage, he can make the scroll, but not the sword, so he only has to buy it and apply the scroll. The mage can also craft staffs and wands, and apply the same technique. Although, the mage will have better stats using a staff than a sword.

For the thief things work different, he can only craft bows, daggers and hook shots, but no other weapons. Buying a scroll from the merchant will give the possibility to add a skill.

Edited May 4, 2017 by FAGC

[lonequeso 1,921]

For the most part are skills available for all weapon tiers? Like would the spinning skill be available from a  tier1- highest sword as long as you can find the recipe? Also, are the recipes that are hidden throughout the world to and/or sidequest rewards? Buying basic recipes in shop is fine, maybe even a couple rare ones, but you gotta make the player work for the really awesome ones   Same question with scrolls. 

[FAGC 9]

For the most part are skills available for all weapon tiers? Like would the spinning skill be available from a  tier1- highest sword as long as you can find the recipe? Also, are the recipes that are hidden throughout the world to and/or sidequest rewards? Buying basic recipes in shop is fine, maybe even a couple rare ones, but you gotta make the player work for the really awesome ones   Same question with scrolls. 

As in every game, things are not easy to find, some scrolls and weapons are hidden in really hard places, for the recipes too. The merchants will sell only a variety of them, and if you want the rare ones, you have to find them. Scrolls can be applied to any weapon that can have that skill, there is no limit on the weapon level for scrolls. But, you can't apply a "Spinning" skill to a staff, or a "Fire ball" to a dagger, it will just not be able in the list.

 

EDIT: Passive abilities comes with the race and class. You will learn them as the MC levels up.

Edited May 4, 2017 by FAGC