development Changing the current system of Lortrec: Uprising

[Skysagi 219]

(Important Note: The Lortrec Project's engine is RPG Maker VX Ace, not RPG Maker MV)

Hello everyone.

Well, as some of you may (or may not) know, I am planning to revive the Lortrec Project sooner or later at some point in time, possibly still in 2017. However, one of the first things I would like to immediately change in Lortrec: Uprising is the current battle system I'm using. I'm actually pretty tired of turn-based battle systems, whether I'm using an ATB (Active-Timed Battle) System or not, it just doesn't satisfy me anymore with how unfairly easy or unfairlly hard it can be, how slow or fast things can get, and not even my balancing measures will be able to solve these problems because, to me, it is a flaw within the very system. Now, I'm not saying this with the intent of upsetting anyone who enjoys this system, but rather trying to look for alternative systems that may satisfy me and fit exactly what I need, based on the game's overall style.

In this topic, I would like to request your opinion, but mostly your suggestions on a new battle system. Yes, I have considered an ABS (Active Battle System), but at this point in the game, doing the entirety of battle-related things from the very beginning will be an exhausting process that will cause the game to be even furtherly delayed, including the fact that most ABS scripts out there, even the most popular ones, are not well optimized and may cause the apperance of many more difficulties.

Back to what I initially wanted to ask of all of you: What suggestions do you have for a new/different battle system? Feel free to give more than one example.

Edited August 16, 2017 by Sky Usanin

[lonequeso 1,921]

My immediate answer would be action RPG, but I'm not sure how practical that would be in any version of RPG Maker so I won't elaborate on that unless you;re willing and able to pull it off. Look up Radiant Historia's battle system. It's a side view, grid based system. That's the most unique thing I can think of off the top of my head. It's a pretty cool system. I now what you mean about turn based games. They can get pretty boring. Action RPGs are far more engrossing for me. A grid system adds an extra tactical element that makes things more interesting. 

 

Another suggestion would be some sort of combo system. Probably best to use an ATB system for it. The idea is certain skills are linked. One character uses Hypnosis to put an enemy to sleep. The next character uses Dream Eater (yup Pokemon moves =D). There would be a window for when/how long the player has to use the follow up skill. If successful it foes more damage and/or has additional/more potent effects. Stuff along those lines. Or a combo chain system with windows. Maybe button inputs, too. 

 

The last, and worst idea is just make a crap ton of status and buff conditions for the player to tinker with and make everything look super shiny and flashy 

It actually can work pretty wlll believe it or not. For that look up Asdivine Dios's battle system. It's a free mobile game so you can always download it and play. You should totally play it.

*Kemco rep hands lonequeso a check*

[Kayzee 4,032]

Yeah, all the 'ABS' scripts I have seen for VX Ace are pretty darn awful. The problem is, if you don't like the normal battle system (and I don't blame you not to) there really aren't a lot of options for a good replacement. Though it seems to me like the biggest problem with the normal JRPG-style battle system isn't really that it's turn-based, it's that there aren't all that many actual meaningful tactical choices. I can see the appeal that 'ABS' scripts might have for adding a bit of tactical depth with moving and attacking, but personally I think most of them end up being button mashers anyway, even if the scripts didn't suck. Personally I would be more interested in tactical RPG style combat or something similar. I think there are at least a few tactical RPG combat scripts, though I haven't checked it out much myself.

 

Ideally if i were making a game I would personally want to use something like the combat in roguelikes, Ultima 1-6, and Live-a-Live. I like to call it 'Single-Step Tactical Combat'. It works better with RPG Maker's grid based movement then a full ABS, gets rid of a lot of the slog that tactical RPG combat can have, and can be fairly tactically deep. But I haven't been able to find a script for it and haven't had much luck making it myself (I got pretty far, got basic movement working, but I had loads of trouble properly mixing in non-movement actions like attacks).

[lonequeso 1,921]

I do love a good Tactical RPG. Tactical would be a good way to go if you can find some good scripts. Personally, whatever system you use, strategy is the most important thing. I greatly value quality of battles over quantity. I managed to do a pretty good job of that using Yanfly Ace System and Hime's Enemy Conditions plus a few others. Yanfly's allows you to a ton more with skills and states, and Hime's makes the enemies a bit smarter.

Edited August 17, 2017 by lonequeso

[Kayzee 4,032]

There are probobly other things that can be done with normal battles to make them more interesting tactically too if you don't find a good alternative. Maybe multiple rows or party formations? Maybe other ways of doing turn order? Maybe reaction abilities? Multitechs? Not sure about what scripts are available,

[Skysagi 219]

@lonequeso So, I actually checked all of these options/games. Well, even if it is grid-based, it's still also turn-based and kind of reminds me of Sideview Systems with a few differences. About the ATB, I've been using it since the beginning of the project and tried making combos/linked actions, but it is still not very fitting/satisfying when it comes to what I actually would like to bring to the project. Thanks for the opinion, though!

 

@Kayzee Yes, I think strategy battles would be a very good option to bring into the game, especially a Tatical Battle System, kind of like what Fire Emblem does. I have actually checked out the currently available Custom Battle Scripts and I did manage to find some Tatical Battle Systems that work and, if I'm not mistaken, a Roguelike System as well. The thing I have with roguelikes is that, even though I've played and enjoyed that style (Pokémon Mystery Dungeon spin-offs), it does feel interesting but not necessarily enough to implement it in Lortrec. Maybe it does work, but I don't really see it pulling off that well since the idea of having battles in Lortrec is only when necessary, where minor conflicts can be avoided, and only major encounters/boss battles are actually required. Tatical Systems, however, did catch my interest, especially because how well I can make it work with the game's mechanics; any add-ons to this kind of system will be considered, too.

 

@lonequeso-2 I'll be checking these scripts out anytime, so I can see how well they can/do work with a TBS.

 

@Kayzee-2 Multiple rows are actually a good idea, but I don't know how would that exactly work. The only alternative way of making turn orders work is with the ATB System, that includes different options on how "Active" it will be - but now I'm simply growing tired of ATB, because I still feel like the chains of turn-based do exist even if the ATB has been implemented, which sucks. Reaction abilities would be probably one of the best ways to save turn-based battles, including multitechs, but even that may not be available in a script - maybe it is, or maybe it can be done via events (which I doubt, but whatever), but if I'm not mistaken, not even that is available.

[Kayzee 4,032]

Keep in mind I am only talking about the basic combat style similar to roguelikes, and really my ideal combat system is probobly much more like Ultima 6 or possibly Live-a-Live then any roguelike. I think of it more like a streamlined TBS then anything else, hence why I like to call it 'Single-Step Tactical Combat'.  Because while I do sometimes like TBS combat, I find it painfully slow and tedious a lot of the time. I never got into Fire Emblem at all because of that. I think that one of the reasons why is just because it just takes way too long to input commands. With 'Single-Step Tactical Combat' most of your common commands are a single button press, and the rest can be called up through a simple menu button easily. Of course, in exchange for input being fast, you also need to think ahead more and deal with more attacks, and it works best with very quick animations. It almost feels like a 'turnbased ABS' that way.

 

Anyway it's a moot point, because I don't know if any existing script can really do that. If you found a good roguelikeish battle script I would love to take a look at it, but most of the ones I have seen are just the movement and are only meant for a single character anyway, I honestly I think something better might be done by mixing in more TBS elements or maybe taking a TBS script and playing around with it, but the scripting involved even makes me shudder. I think an existing TBS script is probobly the best option for someone who wants more depth out of battles then the normal battle system provides for now.

 

Also: Relating to normal battles, I was thinking for rows there might be scripts that let you place the party members in a 3x3 grid, where the further back you are the less you do. There might also be a few that do the Orge Battle or Riviera: The Promised Land thing where depending on where the party members and the enemy is on the grid they might be unable to attack one another. For example, a party member in the back row cannot attack an enemy in the back row (unless the enemy's front row is dead), one on the right side might not be able to attack those on the left. As for turn order stuff, I was thinking something more like Final Fantasy 10 or the other games that do the same kind of thing where you can see the turn order and different things can shuffle it around. I think there is a script for that somewhere. Or once I wrote a free order script that let me input the party's commands in the exact order I wanted them to be used in, but that doesn't amount to much. Either way, I am not sure if any of these little gimmicks would make a huge difference.

 

 

Edited August 18, 2017 by Kayzee

[Skysagi 219]

So, I was considering using the TBS until a while ago, but now I gave up that idea, and I feel like the only way to stop using turn-based battles is getting the best ABS script possible for VX Ace. I have also attempted to move engines, converting the project to MV to see how it would look like and well, I don't think it would compensate due to the massive amount of problems that appeared within the conversion. So, what is the only option left, basically? Getting the best possible ABS script available for VX Ace, and by "best" I mean the most optimized one, that won't cause major problems while running the game. Which one, in your opinion @Kayzee, would be the best one for the situation? It's basically a dead end.

[Kayzee 4,032]

I really couldn't say on that front. I never liked any of the ABS scripts I have seen for more functional reasons (most have really awful interfaces and/or movement) and never really worked with them very much.

Edited August 18, 2017 by Kayzee