Serious moments by comedic characters.

[OctoberRaven 11]

Going to preface this by saying there's going to be some dark themes touched on here.

 

 

One of the NPCs in my game is, in some ways, a deconstruction of preconceptions of what a sexual predator looks like. The character makes comments in their second appearance that clearly make party members she makes passes to very uncomfortable, both due to incompatible orientation and despite compatible orientation, and certain player choices can make the character go even further (triggering a nonstandard gameover).

 

While discussing my progress on the game in passing to another person in my social circle, I noted that I didn't plan on using this character more than once and mused that I probably wouldn't use them again as it wouldn't make sense for them to go to other places the party is. One person suggested that I actually use them in places it wouldn't make sense for they to be, as a running gag.

 

My initial thought was that this would undermine the impact of their second appearance. It's not supposed to be funny. That's the entire point, and that impact is supposed to be stronger for being in an otherwise comedic (sometimes lewdly so) way. But, on the other hand, I'm working alone. i don't know how my audience would react to it other than my own presumptions. So, I'm reaching out to you guys, so I can get some feedback. Is my gut right on this? Or would using her in a "what is they doing HERE" way doable in a way that wouldn't take away the impact of the scene? After all, they''ll be appearing in unexpected ways after this scene, so the impact would have already been made.

Edited June 8, 2020 by OctoberRaven

[Kayzee 4,032]

I have a character like that in my game too sorta! Not sure if I am gonna make her explicitly sexual (probobly pretty lewd though), but she definitely could be described as some kind of predator. Shes a fairy who basically tries to steal the player away to fairyland to play with forever. She is very cute, often makes horrible puns, and can be comedically childish. She also can be very creepy, sort of manipulative, and amoral. But I mean, she is a fairy. That's kind of to be expected.

 

Am I worried that a character that is both comedic and more then a bit predatory will undermine the impact of the more unsavory aspects of her personality? Actually no. I expect in fact the more comedic elements to actually reinforce the impact of her creepy otherworldly predatory nature. Basically she is a character that (if I write her right) should seem cute but the more time you spend talking to her the more you notice she is ever so slightly 'off' compared to normal humans, and after a while she starts going form endearing to creepy and back so suddenly and casually as to really send chills down the player's spine.

 

In fact I am sorta worried about going to far and actually creeping people the heck out. I don't really want people to hate the character, after all she is me. ;)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 9, 2020 by Kayzee

[OctoberRaven 11]

Hm. Well, this character is a vampire, so there's a quite some similarities to these characters then. Thanks for the input. I haven't decided if I'm even going to implement the idea or not, but it'll be on the table if I want a visual gag or something to advance the plot (as the character's second appearance is also meant to help point out the NPC that they need to talk to to access a dungeon).

[Kayzee 4,032]

Though really I expect there will be a lot of characters in my game like that. If I ever finish it. XD

[PhoenixSoul 1,404]

Huh. I don't really have an opine on this, but one thing I will say is that ultimately, it's your game, your choice.

Bonne chance.

[Aslanemperor 48]

On 6/8/2020 at 7:36 PM, OctoberRaven said:

My initial thought was that this would undermine the impact of their second appearance. It's not supposed to be funny. That's the entire point, and that impact is supposed to be stronger for being in an otherwise comedic (sometimes lewdly so) way. But, on the other hand, I'm working alone. i don't know how my audience would react to it other than my own presumptions. So, I'm reaching out to you guys, so I can get some feedback. Is my gut right on this? Or would using her in a "what is they doing HERE" way doable in a way that wouldn't take away the impact of the scene? After all, they''ll be appearing in unexpected ways after this scene, so the impact would have already been made.

 

So, here's my thoughts:  I like the idea of having a character like this that is usually comedic being used in a serious way to provide enough of a contrast to shock the audience.  This can be done to great effect, and the more unexpected it is, the more impact it will have.  On that note, I'd like to state two things:  1.  The idea given by your friends to place her in more comedic situations can really work towards your end goal.  It can actually establish expectations in your audience which will be subverted in order to really shock them when this serious reveal comes forward.  That can make your scene so much more powerful!  2.  In order to make the first point work, you need to make sure that none of the previous scenes directly contradict the second.  A good example of this (On a kinda opposite note) was Batman from the "Batman vs Superman" and "Justice League".  One of the most commonly mentioned pet peeves I hear about those movie is how Bruce Wayne is shown to be a brooding, seriously troubled individual who simply doesn't pop one liners in Batman vs Superman, then suddenly he's comic relief in Justice League.  The problem isn't that people aren't willing to accept that Batman can be funny (other films have done a good job of showing that he has a fun loving, less serious side), the problem is that the change was so drastic in a situation where this was supposed to be a darker version of Batman.  If, however, you put little foreshadowing hints that there's a potential for this character to react this way given the right stimulus, it will still be surprising, but not so much as for people to be shaking their heads asking "WTF was that!?"

[PhoenixSoul 1,404]

Canonically, Justice League Batman is many years after the major plot points of Batman; one would think that in that time, Bruce would of lightened up some. Actually, canonically, this begins before the major plot points of Batman end, though it's a subtle change initially. However, Bruce's humor is far more noticeable after the demise of Two-Face by comparison to the plot points before Two-Face becomes a primary villain.

I've read the first prints, so I know this is the intended story arc. Reprints revise some plot points (primarily to please 'Karens/Keiths'), but only noticeable to the avid readers and to fans. A disservice and dishonest, all the same.

[Aslanemperor 48]

3 hours ago, PhoenixSoul said:

Canonically, Justice League Batman is many years after the major plot points of Batman; one would think that in that time, Bruce would of lightened up some. Actually, canonically, this begins before the major plot points of Batman end, though it's a subtle change initially. However, Bruce's humor is far more noticeable after the demise of Two-Face by comparison to the plot points before Two-Face becomes a primary villain.

I've read the first prints, so I know this is the intended story arc. Reprints revise some plot points (primarily to please 'Karens/Keiths'), but only noticeable to the avid readers and to fans. A disservice and dishonest, all the same.

Not to get off on a tangent, but this isn't really made clear.  Also, from what almost every comic we've read about Batman shows, Bruce Wayne doesn't "lighten up."  As he gets older, he seems to get a bit more jaded and less humorous.  I mean, if you look at Batman Beyond, old Bruce Wayne is a recluse, pushing everyone away from him.

 

Either way, the point stands:  You don't want the change to seem like it came out of nowhere.  You want it to seem consistent with the character for those who have been paying attention.  If you don't, people are going to think that it doesn't make sense for the character. So either stick with the original plan of only two scenes, understanding that this may limit the impact it will have, or make sure that the multiple scenes give the impression that this sort of reaction later on could happen.

 

(Sorry to go all comic geek in your topic, OctoberRaven!)

[Kayzee 4,032]

I am pretty sure you two are mixing up two or three entirely different canons at this point, but who knows with comic book continuity!

[Aslanemperor 48]

18 hours ago, Kayzee said:

I am pretty sure you two are mixing up two or three entirely different canons at this point, but who knows with comic book continuity!

My point was, whether it's Canon or not is irrelevant.  The point stands on it's own.  I was using the movie as an example of writing that people were upset about, and for what reason they were upset as those reasons were relevant to the point I was making.  Considering the way DC does things, it wouldn't surprise me if Batman Beyond isn't considered Canon anymore and at least one other story I base my theory on is absolutely not considered Canon, though it's an amazing story (I can't for the life of me find the name of it.  The Dark Knight Returns is similar,

but there are story elements mentioned in the Wikipedia that don't match what I remember, so I'm not sure that's the one).  The main point being Bruce totally gets more grumpy and bitter as an older man from what I've seen.  I haven't seen any version of him that is what one would consider "light hearted."

[Kayzee 4,032]

Well if we are going to count aaaallll the different versions of batman: 60s TV Batman, Batman the Brave and the Bold, and Lego Batman (and possibly a large part of the comic during the silver age of comics) would like to say hi. So it's not like a light-hearted Batman can't ever work. But yeah, I am not excusing the movies. I heard both Batman vs Superman and Justice League were pretty awful anyway, so it seems to me the inconsistent tone between the movies is just one of many symptoms of the generally awful writing and generaly not understanding or caring about the source material.

 

And pretty sure Batman Beyond is and always was canon... to the DCAU (DC Animated Universe) and only the DCAU. Not to the comics, and most of the movies aren't even canon with each other, let alone the comics or the DCAU. See, that's the thing. There is more then one 'canon'. And yes that does kind of defeat the whole point in having a canon in the first place, but comic book continuity tends to be like that. And don't even start with how even just the comic continuity with nothing else added involves multiple timelines and time being tied up in a knot and smashed to pieces multiple times. It's not pretty. All things considered I wouldn't blame you if you thought of the DCAU as the 'one true canon'. It's by far the cleanest and most consistent. Also it has Batman Beyond, and that show was awesome. Also also invented of Harley Quinn, and she's pretty awesome too. So awesome she was introduced in to the comics after, and they hardly ever did that.

 

 

 

Edited August 15, 2020 by Kayzee

[PhoenixSoul 1,404]

If I want to look for source material canon, I don't look to film adaptations because as a general rule of thumb, film adaptations almost never get it.

There are the rare film adaptations that nail it, or that do damn well, but that's a rare thing, even rarer now than back in the 2000's, with commonality increasing the further you go back, well, to the 1970's anyway, when film adaptations were actually getting better with special effects and thus allowing artistic licensing.

When I think of animated adaptations, there are many a times when the source material drops in and out of the limelight, or is ignored altogether.

I'm going to drop in Teen Titans, whom at first, definitely were more like their source material (though I don't think Robin ever had the hots for Starfire and the language-learning magic contact was far more subtle than in the adaptation), but it wasn't long before it was mostly artistic license and advertising for Puffy AmiYumi. I believe they go by BabyMetal now.....(?) Oh, and Teen Titans GO! is just a complete, total cashgrab. It barely touches on some parts of the previous series but it goes off on a silly tangent that puts me completely off. I don't recall all of the Teen Titans villains, but I don't remember Slade (who could be an absolute badass if they weren't into playing 4D mindchess all the damn time) being part of the villain roster. Same with Terra; I don't recall her being an existing character either.

...

Speaking of Slade...since this topic is about serious moments by comedic characters (and vice-versa apparently), there are a few moments where Slade says or does something I find highly comical. It's barely touched on though.

Fan-fiction, I think, is more respective to source material than most film adaptations these days...

[Kayzee 4,032]

Very few things are actually created as direct adaptations of the original comics though, because the original comics are mostly a huge mess of overlapping nonsensical plots which consistently contradict each other. Besides this has gotten waaay off topic at this point, so I will say no more about it after this.

 

Anyway getting back on topic, if there is one thing I think comics and the stories inspired by them show time and time again it's that if something is serious or comedic is often purely based on context. Batman's brooding grumpy and bitter nature for example can and often is used as a joke in of it's self. So it kinda builds on what I said before: I don't think there should ideally be any real distinction between 'serious' characters and 'comedic' characters. A character should I think be a character first and foremost. They act the way they do because of who they are, and if they are acting 'serious' or 'comedic' comes down to the context of their actions in the moment.

 

Imagine of we have a scooby-doo/shaggy character who always tries to run and hide form everything. Then we have a situation where everyone is in danger and only they can help. Do they suck it up and do what needs to be done in a pinch, or do they abandon their friends and save themselves? Usually in stories they end up doing the former, but imagine if they didn't. Imagine if their actions would be perfectly consistent with everything they have done till then, but now the situation the context is changed and we are no longer laughing. That character who is always cracking jokes could clam up and get serious when the bad guy starts killing their friends, or they could just start telling darker jokes. Maybe it's the only way they can cope. Maybe they are really that cynical and just don't care.

 

Huh. Will you look at that. A character's biggest personality flaw can be used for a joke, but that doesn't mean it isn't still a personality flaw and can't also be used for drama. Maybe this sets up a character's plot arc, or maybe it just reveals or reminds us that the character isn't actually the best person in the world. It works in reverse to, where a normally serious character actually cracks a joke if they think the situation calls for it, showing that yes they do know how to relax sometimes.

 

Some of you may have seen the famous 'comedy and tragedy' masks. You know, where one is smiling like they are laughing and the other is frowning almost as if they are crying. Sorta like this: . You may think it's just a symbol, but comedy and tragedy really are like masks. They can be worn and taken off and switched around at will and it doesn't really change the person underneath... At least no more then a mask usually changes a person, but that's a whole other debate. :3

 

Edited August 15, 2020 by Kayzee

[PhoenixSoul 1,404]

2 hours ago, Kayzee said:

At least no more then a mask usually changes a person, but that's a whole other debate.

 

I see what you did there. Well spoken, mon amour.

There's this one episode of Metalocalypse where the band decides to do stand-up comedy, and all of them are able to pull it off except the drummer, Pickles, until Pickles gets a hardcore life-lesson from a former comedian, who then takes their own life after Pickles masters the brutality portion of comedy.

"I went to the beach today, and guess what I found? SAND!!!" (throws a pocketful of sand into the face of one of the audience members lolz)