In defense of new, and less new builders, and usage of the RTP.

[omedon666 4]

I am a firm believer that one should never apologize, and thus dilute their word, when a clarification would accomplish basically the same thing.

Last night, on this thread (http://www.rpgmakervxace.net/topic/9603-what-if-someone-was-lazy-like-this/), I responded to what I've resolved to view as “par for the course†for a developer forum with a carefully worded expression of how it looked to an outsider.

 

I called a spade a spade. I called the words of one of the elite, elitist. Shocking, I know.

 

And then a passionate member of this artistic community of creative people flew off the handle and absolutely erupted, and put so many words in my mouth that I had a hard time eating my triscuits and cheddar. My response was twofold. On one hand “whoooaaaa take it easy, I'm outta here†was at the forefront, but it also showed an underlying care for each other within the community that I cannot help but find heartwarming. It is that second impression that has me posting today, after a night's sleep.

 

I had every option to sign up for this community and just lurk, use resources (crediting appropriately, of course), and never say a word. I consciously chose to speak up, to have an opinion, because, despite something rather indirectly funny that someone said in said other thread last night, oh, I can be so very, very longwinded and opinionated when I'm in the right.

 

Today I bring perspective, and am hopefully better understood, because I'd like to consider myself part of the community, but I don't think I truly fit, because I am not jaded after years of exposure, a state of being that many of you can't seem to even want to shake.

 

When I bought RPG maker VXace, it was the second world-building toolset I had ever played with, the first being the Aurora toolset for Neverwinter Nights, where I ran my own persistent world for a few years. When I did this, I had strengths and weaknesses. My strengths, far and away, were writing story, especially dialogue, and statting monsters. I had to delegate, to my extensive, talented team, all of the mapping and scripting, and the only “external art resources†we'd use (because using any at all necessitated any and all prospective players to download from a 3^rd party whose availability was not guaranteed) was a massive, communally acclaimed "community expansion pack," which came with countless monsters and placeable map bits.

 

Because of how “pain in the behind†the application of external art resources was, I became an expert at getting the most out of the default graphical and musical toolset we were allowed. We created a massive world that I populated with a great many “common looking†monsters with new names and different sets of skills, not to mention casting these creatures and NPCs in a core, LINEAR story that served as a backdrop to player interaction. No one was under any illusions that I had created these art assets with my bare hands, but the world had its own soul, it had its own life, because of our stories. To this day, my small, passionate player community reminisces about the time they had in Dracontide (our world), and not a single tileset was “out of the box,†not a single monster graphic hadn't been used in countless other modules and worlds available for players to enjoy at any time.

 

When I beheld the RTP, I said to myself “I can get a good 3-4 games out of these monsters, the problem is I'd have to build-OH MY GOD these stock maps are gorgeous and OH MY GOD there's a random dungeon generator!†With a baby steps approach to scripting and events, I made my way through my first creation, getting liberal use out of “roleplayer conventions†such as asterisks for emotes in place of scripted movement of sprites (which I'm sure I'll learn eventually).

 

When it came time to populate the cast of my story, I utilized two “boxed heroes,†(alongside my 100% original heroine, my cat!) and yes, I kept their names, because why not? Sure, I could have come up with new names for them, but being new to the toolset, I didn't know if that would break anything (in the Aurora toolset, this was often possible), and now, knowing that it wouldn't break anything, hundreds of lines of dialogue later, I don't feel like going back and changing them. Besides, the names were good, and new to the non-builder.

 

But allow me to re-direct this post back to its intent. My point is, I tend to see toolsets like these through the eyes of a non-builder. That means that, for my intended audience, the RTP is 100% new, and so 100% viably usable, liberally so. This perception makes the process and the concept of building something for a “normal†audience vastly less daunting. Sadly, this doesn't seem to be a common perception among this community, so, yes, it's demoralizing and, while I don't want to say “intimidating†(because, come on, why would I need to fear you?) it's certainly less encouraging to think that one building for the common gamer would be less likely get any kind of positivity from such a vocal elite.

 

Because that's what you guys are. You're the elite. Elitism is just normal to you. While I can accept that, I can also see that I had best tread lightly as I ask for advice, read what you've posted, and simply wait until I can potentially surprise you all with something coming from “the new guy†that's been watching as he built a series of well accepted games that he and his friends enjoyed immensely. That means not officially and directly sharing my games for awhile, if ever, because I'm not in your headspace, and, no offence, I will fight the idea of entering that headspace for as long as I can. In the meantime, proud as I am of my stories and my dialogue and my characters, even in my very first game, I'd have to chalk my arm's length distance with my games up to being this community's loss, unfortunately.

 

So, no, I do not retract a word I've said, and I do think that there's a great use for the RTP that STARTS OVER with every new builder that finds VXace. Your “tiredness†with the RTP doesn't continue on with every new face in the community, the impression starts over, and I'm not seeing support for that here, and that's counter to your community's growth. What I'm seeing is “this application of the RTP is WRONG, that one is RIGHT, this is BAD, that is GOOD.†That's not encouragement, that's just the elite, being what they are. It just is what it is. I have every intention of utilizing RTP shop interiors, inn interiors, perhaps even town exteriors multiple times, because they're the kind of details that taking the time to build new ones just because "OMG the RM community would throw a fit otherwise†takes time away from other, more important details.

 

I used to be a “theatre guy†in highschool. At the apex of my playwriting, I knew fellow playwrights and directors who, unlike me, couldn't take in a play anymore, because they'd want to leap from the audience and correct the blocking, and call “cut†and coach the actors. I promised myself that if I ever got to that point, I'd stop writing and directing plays. I make myself the same promise with building games.

 

Perhaps some of you could benefit from a pledge like that.

 

I feel better after getting this off my chest, and I will re-include my gaming endeavour's facebook page's link with my signature just after I post this. I want you all to know that I appreciate you, I respect you and your opinions, just realize that I am over here shaking my head at your jadedness, and wishing you could see this toolset with the wonder I see it, boxed resources included. I'm always open to critiques of my work, but I now know to take the anti-RTP stance and slant of this community with a truckload of salt, as it's a mindset I'm working in the assumption that my audience doesn't share. In short, I'm not building for you, but I'll happily build among you, so long as we understand each other.

 

Thank you for your time in reading this. Oh, and happy new year, in case I don't catch you before then.

 

-Omedon (without a "g", don't know where that came from )

Edited December 30, 2012 by omedon666

[Shablo5 8]

Welcome to the community.

 

'And then a passionate member of this artistic community of creative people flew off the handle and absolutely erupted, and put so many words in my mouth that I had a hard time eating my triscuits and cheddar. My response was twofold. On one hand “whoooaaaa take it easy, I'm outta here†was at the forefront, but it also showed an underlying care for each other within the community that I cannot help but find heartwarming. It is that second impression that has me posting today, after a night's sleep.'

 

That right there makes your post not worth discussing, really. It's merely a reaction of yours to a single member / a few members, and as such, should be kept in the original thread, nobody needs to discuss how person A reacted to whiner B.

Edited December 30, 2012 by Shablo5

[omedon666 4]

(EDIT: nevermind then, if you're going to edit the post into something unpleasant, I'll retract my pleasant statement)

 

If a mod could delete this post (I can't find the button, if it exists) I'd be most grateful, thank you.

Edited December 30, 2012 by omedon666

[RetroExcellent 369]

I am glad to have you amongst us Omedon, but I must say I'm finding it humorous that you assume everyone jaded and assume that anything even related to making your own graphics is some sort of anti-rtp elitsism and jadeness. That right there shows that you are already jaded and assuming the worst out of anyone on this community, it doesn't benefit anyone.

 

I am a firm believer that one should never just assume anything. We should not assume a game with RTP is bad, we should not even assume a game made with Ralph is bad (As annoying as he is). We should not assume that a statement to improve a game or make it unique is anti-rtp elitsism. Do you get what I am saying?

 

Personally I love the RTP, it's squarish and the chibi characters annoy the crap out of me, but it is very well done and it is a level of design that I aspire to some day. I use some of the RTP in my own games, but I will eventually move away from that. Not because I think the RTP is bad, but because I love creating my own resources.

 

I've been making RPG maker games for years, started on 2k3 and I don't consider myself jaded. I love the pre-made graphics, the dungeon generators because of what they are. They are learning tools that allow people to create their dream games, and THAT is amazing. You do not have to create your game among us, you don't have to share in our view points. But you are a colleague and you shouldn't just assume the worst out of other people either.

 

Phew, well that was a mouthful, I hope you take the time to understand what I am saying and not take offense, as none was meant, I will assume you will not take offense and we can all move on from this and have learned a bit more about each other.

[omedon666 4]

I am glad to have you amongst us Omedon, but I must say I'm finding it humorous that you assume everyone jaded and assume that anything even related to making your own graphics is some sort of anti-rtp elitsism and jadeness. That right there shows that you are already jaded and assuming the worst out of anyone on this community, it doesn't benefit anyone.

 

I am a firm believer that one should never just assume anything. We should not assume a game with RTP is bad, we should not even assume a game made with Ralph is bad (As annoying as he is). We should not assume that a statement to improve a game or make it unique is anti-rtp elitsism. Do you get what I am saying?

 

Personally I love the RTP, it's squarish and the chibi characters annoy the crap out of me, but it is very well done and it is a level of design that I aspire to some day. I use some of the RTP in my own games, but I will eventually move away from that. Not because I think the RTP is bad, but because I love creating my own resources.

 

I've been making RPG maker games for years, started on 2k3 and I don't consider myself jaded. I love the pre-made graphics, the dungeon generators because of what they are. They are learning tools that allow people to create their dream games, and THAT is amazing. You do not have to create your game among us, you don't have to share in our view points. But you are a colleague and you shouldn't just assume the worst out of other people either.

 

Phew, well that was a mouthful, I hope you take the time to understand what I am saying and not take offense, as none was meant, I will assume you will not take offense and we can all move on from this and have learned a bit more about each other.

I get what you're saying, and with the corners I cut in my original post here (yes, it was LONGER!) I can see how it was perceived that  I was just assuming based on one person's reaction, but other posters in the other thread went on to confirm my suspicions that the "anti-RTP" sentiment is rather prominent in this community (which again, in context, is understandable to a degree), by pretty much saying just that, and that's the main launching point for these "assumptions."

 

It's not everyone, but it's enough to be daunting, is my point.  While My post seemed general and aimed at everyone, it is indeed aimed at those for whom it was intended: people who can't help but be jaded to the RTP, in a way that could negatively impact community growth.

[amerk 1,122]

The anti-RTP sentiment is actually prominent in most communities, some more so than others. There's no way around it when you are on an RM site, because there are plenty of people who will bitch the moment they see any resemblance of the RTP.

 

I don't get the strong feeling of dislike here. Sure there are some, but what can you do? Most here seem to be okay with the RTP. I think EB did a great job with the resources in Ace this time around. The maps (most of them, anyways) are rather decent, too, and the audio kicks butt.

 

It's not a question of whether the RTP is bad. It's a question of whether or not you should design a game strictly bound to the RTP, and not make a single change to any bit of it. Even if you kept the resources your own, even if you went with the built in maps - again, I strongly advise you to use the maps as a base for your own game and work for there, but to each their own - even if you went with the default scripts, battle system, audio, and graphics.... the database can easily be changed and doesn't require any amount of graphical effort. You can change the character names, give them stats that would fit your game's story, change the RTP monster names, revise their stats, create new weapons, skills, states, and items that fit into your own game's place setting and story. To refuse to even do that much, though, will likely not garner a lot of positive feedback.

 

Even on RMW (the official Degica site), who are very RTP relaxed, if you attempted a game and did not bother to make one adjustment whatsoever, you'll probably receive negative feedback. So again, it's not about the RTP, but how much of it you should keep, and how much you should try and change.

[Tsukihime 1,489]

I don't think it is surprising that developers are anti-RTP: when someone sees a game made with RTP resources it's almost always going to get negative votes and all sorts of "LOL RTP TOTAL FAILZ" kinds of comments.

 

This is based on what I saw from RM games on steam's greenlight thing, so I don't know if this is representative of players in general.

 

Though, strangely, whenever someone mentions using a script made by a popular developer, you don't see anything wrong with that.

Edited December 31, 2012 by Tsukihime

[Radiant Arin 412]

I dislike the music for Ace. I much preferred VX's.

 

**preapres for immediate banning**

[omedon666 4]

I dislike the music for Ace. I much preferred VX's.

 

**preapres for immediate banning**

I'll have to look for some of that.

 

One of Ace's "theme" tracks was amazing for my latest project, when used in moments of heart-grabbing revelation.  

[Wren 179]

I don't think it is surprising that developers are anti-RTP: when someone sees a game made with RTP resources it's almost always going to get negative votes and all sorts of "LOL RTP TOTAL FAILZ" kinds of comments.

 

This is based on what I saw from RM games on steam's greenlight thing, so I don't know if this is representative of players in general.

 

Though, strangely, whenever someone mentions using a script made by a popular developer, you don't see anything wrong with that.

That is strange. What if every game was using that SBS or ABS?

 

You would think that by now EB would have a toggle to enable side view or bottom view since every RPGMaker in history has had a script come out to do just that.

 

Also..

 

"I am a firm believer that one should never just assume anything. We should not assume a game with RTP is bad, we should not even assume a game made with Ralph is bad..." -- Shaddow

 

I don't even know what that means?

 

Also..

 

"

In my personal opinion there are plenty of resources out there that you don't even need to use the RTP anymore. Just a search on Google will bring up resources by Cellianna, Lunerea which are free to use. Also if you are members of forums you'll actually have access to custom resources made for the community. I don't "hate" the RTP but I don't see why you have to use it. Also, you have GrandmaDeb's resource lists to make your life easier..." -- Jonnie91

 

How would new people to the community know that making stuff from the above sources is just fine and dandy and accepted? I don't even know what GrandmaDeb's resource list is.

Edited December 31, 2012 by Wren

[Radiant Arin 412]

I'll have to look for some of that.

 

One of Ace's "theme" tracks was amazing for my latest project, when used in moments of heart-grabbing revelation.  

 

I'm in strong favor of the battle themes for VX. Even though they're MIDI, they can easily be formatted into MP3 format, which can then be formatted into OGG to use in Ace, but that's irrelevant. Even some of the Battle Music from VX can be passed off as generic Dungeon music that actually has a bit of vibe to it. The Ace music lacks a certain.....kick, if you will.

 

I'm not a big fan of the pre-generated maps since I'm trying to get my mapping better, but they are well designed. I suppose that's the only redeeming feature.

 

Also, Ralph is the best character ever and you suck if you don't like him. <3

Edited December 31, 2012 by Cinia Pacifica

[omedon666 4]

 I don't even know what GrandmaDeb's resource list is.

Exactly.  And you aren't required to to make a good game with this toolset.

 

That's my entire point.

 

All I suggest is that those here that admit to being jaded to the RTP perhaps realize it as a block to enjoying some new builders' perfectly acceptable games.

 

Not everyone, I can't speak for everyone, but a cursory glance and the words of established community members say that the "Anti RTP" sentiment is there.  What that is, in my view, is a bias against new builders, because expecting new builders to use anything but the RTP is unreasonable.

 

Again, this isn't an issue with "everyone," but it's an issue.

[amerk 1,122]

Then don't post your game if you're afraid of negative feedback. I really don't know what else to say to you. And frankly I'm trying to understand the context of this thread since you seem to be against everybody's opinion anyways.

 

Here it is in bold, and maybe then it'll make sense:

 

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE RTP, IT'S NOT ABOUT BEING ANTI-RTP. IT'S ABOUT REFUSING TO DO ANY OF THE WORK IT TAKES TO MAKE A DECENT RPG.

 

I wish I could tell you that throwing a game together with a few events is enough to make everybody sing praises for your game, but the reality is it's not. Nobody said you must change the graphics, or music, or scripts. What they ask is that you be creative and try to find ways to make the game stand out on its own.

 

When somebody comes along to me and says: "Hey, I'm not much of a mapper, but I really like the maps that Ace provides. I'd like to use them for the basis of my own mapping and try and make them work for me. What do you think of these maps I used, and the changes I made?" I tell them go for it. The maps are just another resource to work with in Ace, and I've used a few myself, and then I offer ideas of what they can add.

 

But when somebody comes along and says: "I'm too lazy to make a game, and if somebody criticizes me for using all the maps Ace provides without making any of my own changes, then they're anti-RTP." To that I tell them, you're right, you are lazy, go ahead and post your game, but don't expect people to play it and provide good feedback on it.

 

I mean, what do you want us to say? Awesome game, great job with your mapping abilities? I love how well you've balanced the game?

[omedon666 4]

Then don't post your game if you're afraid of negative feedback.

Actually, these last couple of days have helped me pre-emptively get over much of any negative feedback I'd get from this particular community, as I could just let it roll off my back as "they're just jaded."

 

Not all of it, mind you, but much of it.  I'm still learning, so there's that.  I'm not out to wow fellow builders, (I'm no masochist) but I do think that a contextual tolerance is a good idea, which you seem to have, so that's good.

 

Hence my renewed comfort and confidence.

[Bunni89 85]

Oh, for the love of-

HELLO, GUYS! 'Passionate member who went off the handle' here.. why the HELL did you decide to make a thread just to go 'oh no naming names, but someone disagreed with me yesterday and I'm gonna decide for myself what their problem was'.

I'll repeat exactly what I said yesterday about five times that you just refused to bloomin' read.

NOONE said the RTP is bad. NOONE said there isn't giant potential in the RTP. I yelled at you because you put words in the mouth of Amerk and then said they were 'so eliteist' and 'made you not feel welcome' for something they didn't even even say! I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you misread, because you UTTERLY derailed a topic and went from zero to 100 on the crazy loony scale in five seconds. Can you not see how it might PERHAPS be infuriating when someone comes in having not read the topic and accuses a total stranger of being an eliteist bigot?? When they never said anything offensive and that'd be obvious if you just reread their post. Even if the person did express a view different to you, its still loopy to yell that they're stuck up because of it and imply the entire forum is like that and the only possible reason anyone could dislike the RTP is because they have a giant ego and hate noobs.

 

To basically sum up the issue for everyone new here, this is what happened:

the topic opener: Would you play a game where someone was lazy and used all the sample maps and didn't change anything in the database?

Amerk: No, that sounds rubbish though it's a good way to practise gamemaking. *insert a long post explaining many ways you can be creative with the RTP*

Omegdon: Omg you elitist, this whole forum is full of jerks that make me not wanna post my games! You're saying NOONE CAN USE THE RTP EVER?

 

I mean jesus, there was no conflict there. Noone said anything dissing the RTP at ALL and it was a total derail! And apparantly omegdon continued not reading anyone's posts cos they're all 'oh bunni just hates the RTP! bunni is defending an elitiest!' when I said several times that I'm fine with it and I use the default tilesets myself. And amerk continued to not remotely say anything dickish and I continue to get pissed off! GAH!

But  this is really getting on my nerves and apparantly no matter how many times I point out to omegdon that he's making a strawman he won't notice, so seriously this is the last post I'm making on the topic T^T

 

EDIT: Oh god, I just reread 'the responses in the last topic convinced me everyone really does hate the RTP!'

*headdesk*

Is there some sort of magic filtration device that changes every word we all said into the exact opposite? People just kept pointing out you were jumping to conclusions, some people who came in late and thought the topic actually WAS about anti-RTP did say 'oh I don't exactly like the RTP' or 'it'd help make a game look unique if you used your own stuff' but noone was confrontational or said anything against omegdon's games..

Edited December 31, 2012 by Bunni89

[omedon666 4]

Oh, for the love of-

HELLO, GUYS! 'Passionate member who went off the handle' here.. why the HELL did you decide to make a thread just to go 'oh no naming names, but someone disagreed with me yesterday and I'm gonna decide for myself what their problem was'.

I'll repeat exactly what I said yesterday about five times that you just refused to bloomin' read.

NOONE said the RTP is bad. NOONE said there isn't giant potential in the RTP. I yelled at you because you put words in the mouth of Amerk and then said they were 'so eliteist' and 'made you not feel welcome' for something they didn't even even say! I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you misread, because you UTTERLY derailed a topic and went from zero to 100 on the crazy loony scale in five seconds. Can you not see how it might PERHAPS be infuriating when someone comes in having not read the topic and accuses a total stranger of being an eliteist bigot?? When they never said anything offensive and that'd be obvious if you just reread their post. Even if the person did express a view different to you, its still loopy to yell that they're stuck up because of it and imply the entire forum is like that and the only possible reason anyone could dislike the RTP is because they have a giant ego and hate noobs.

 

To basically sum up the issue for everyone new here, this is what happened:

the topic opener: Would you play a game where someone was lazy and used all the sample maps and didn't change anything in the database?

Amerk: No, that sounds rubbish though it's a good way to practise gamemaking. *insert a long post explaining many ways you can be creative with the RTP*

Omegdon: Omg you elitist, this whole forum is full of jerks that make me not wanna post my games! You're saying NOONE CAN USE THE RTP EVER?

 

I mean jesus, there was no conflict there. Noone said anything dissing the RTP at ALL and it was a total derail! And apparantly omegdon continued not reading anyone's posts cos they're all 'oh bunni just hates the RTP! bunni is defending an elitiest!' when I said several times that I'm fine with it and I use the default tilesets myself. And amerk continued to not remotely say anything dickish and I continue to get pissed off! GAH!

But  this is really getting on my nerves and apparantly no matter how many times I point out to omegdon that he's making a strawman he won't notice, so seriously this is the last post I'm making on the topic T^T

 

Um... wow...

 

I suppose all I can say to that wall of... whatever it was, is that the idea of "bigot" was never implied or used.

 

Have a... nice day...?

[Bunni89 85]

*facepalm* Just a few paragraphs of text is a wall, whereas your OP wasn't..?

And oh yeah, you said 'elitist' instead of bigot, thanks for the spellcheck there.

And woo, again not even reading my post or getting the point. *slow clap*

I give up. Good luck with your RTP game that noone ever insulted... good luck finding a world where noone tries to correct you on misconceptions too. Have fun getting offended at made-up strawmen.

[omedon666 4]

*facepalm* Just a few paragraphs of text is a wall, whereas your OP wasn't..?

And oh yeah, you said 'elitist' instead of bigot, thanks for the spellcheck there.

And woo, again not even reading my post or getting the point. *slow clap*

I give up. Good luck with your RTP game that noone ever insulted... good luck finding a world where noone tries to correct you on misconceptions too. Have fun getting offended at made-up strawmen.

I wish you nothing but peace and happiness, Bunni, really, your passion is admirable.

 

If you wish to take this discussion further, you are welcome to PM me, but I don't think we need a public mudwrestling fest.

 

Take care

Edited December 31, 2012 by omedon666

[Wren 179]

Oh, for the love of---snip-- but noone was confrontational or said anything against omegdon's games..

 

There was a few comments in that thread, but it's been implied or stated directly in other posts, some here, some on other forums.  A large portion of any game's credibility is lost when the designer doesn't use A ) custom graphics or B ) custom battle engine scripts.  To most of the established community that's already two strikes against the game and they are just waiting to find the third so they can throw the game under the bus.  This isn't a new thing either, the same sort of vibe has been in the rpg maker community since shortly after the program came out many years ago.  Some of the people who have been making games have been doing so for a very long time and by now has probably seen every sort of manipulation and use out of the RTP that it is no wonder they are getting tired of looking at it.

 

If you haven't experienced any of the lashback personally then just consider yourself lucky, but to say it doesn't exist at all is not very truthful either.

[Bunni89 85]

*triple facepalm* Okay, can you answer me this: what do you think I am 'passionate' about?

Because I have spent two topics repeatedly trying to get it across to you that I was never putting down people about using the RTP, and nor was amerk. You misread his post. And angrily called him elitist. You completely derailed a topic that was never about anti-RTP, and to be honest apologising WOULD be kinda nice.

I have nothing against people calling out those who diss the RTP, but noone did that! I'm getting rightfully annoyed that you keep interpreting mine, amerk's and everyone else's posts as anti-RTP regardless of what we say. This is the equivelant of walking into a cheese store and saying 'I hate people who sell yogurt!' then rambling about how cheese isn't so bad for two days and calling everyone jerks when they try and point out you're making no sense.

 

I kinda don't like being treated as if I'm some troll when I'm making a reasonable point. I'd just like you to edit your OP to remove all the stuff about 'oh, everyone here hates RTP and yesterday everyone argued with me that RTP sucks!' because it did not happen, it was a long and sustained misunderstanding. If you do that, I'm perfectly fine with dropping it and actually replying on the subject of pro and anti RTP. (In which case, like I've told you several times, I love a good RTP game..)

 

EDIT: @ Wren: Sorry if I sounded like I was implying anti-RTP doesn't exist in this community, I didn't mean that. I was just saying that yesterday in the previous thread omegdon started accusing people of being unwelcoming and elitist when they hadn't actually said anything anti-RTP, let alone insulted him. I'm just pissed he started a new thread that's all "oh everyone yesterday was terrible!"

Debating the actual topic of anti-RTP is fine and my personal opinion is that anti-RTP thoughts are reasonable, since the people saying them have been longtime forumgoers who've seen way too many identical games. However passing up a game because its RTP or dissing the creator is really unreasonable. Basically I wouldn't reccommend people use RTP and I don't enjoy RTP, but I would never insult it and it doesn't ruin a game or anything.

Edited December 31, 2012 by Bunni89

[Wren 179]

*triple facepalm* Okay, can you answer me this: what do you think I am 'passionate' about?

Because I have spent two topics repeatedly trying to get it across to you that I was never putting down people about using the RTP, and nor was amerk. You misread his post. And angrily called him elitist. You completely derailed a topic that was never about anti-RTP, and to be honest apologising WOULD be kinda nice.

I have nothing against people calling out those who diss the RTP, but noone did that! I'm getting rightfully annoyed that you keep interpreting mine, amerk's and everyone else's posts as anti-RTP regardless of what we say. This is the equivelant of walking into a cheese store and saying 'I hate people who sell yogurt!' then rambling about how cheese isn't so bad for two days and calling everyone jerks when they try and point out you're making no sense.

 

I kinda don't like being treated as if I'm some troll when I'm making a reasonable point. I'd just like you to edit your OP to remove all the stuff about 'oh, everyone here hates RTP and yesterday everyone argued with me that RTP sucks!' because it did not happen, it was a long and sustained misunderstanding. If you do that, I'm perfectly fine with dropping it and actually replying on the subject of pro and anti RTP. (In which case, like I've told you several times, I love a good RTP game..)

 

The original post said 'uses RTP, DEFAULT DATABASE (otherwise known as RTP), and takes a month' (implying, I don't know, maybe that they have a hard time eventing and it takes them a month even though they are using RTP (which of course is the easiest and LAZIEST way to do something)) and then implying that by default such a game is going to be a bad game, then laughing it off saying they would never do such a thing, because that would be unheard of!

 

Have a nice day Bunni89.

[Bunni89 85]

Um, no. The original post was not 'RTP is bad'. It was 'using all the defaults is bad'. At least that's how I read it, and how amerk read it. Seeing as omedon raged against AMERK then that is why I was angry, amerk had not expressed sentiments of 'all RTP is bad'.

The OP said using all the premade maps and not editing the database, that is what was lazy. They never said RTP itself is lazy, so I figured omedon was reading too much into it. What amerk originally said -and why i agree that the OP's scenario IS lazy- is that the RTP can be used great if you're creative with it. Have fun experimenting! Change character names, make your own maps, edit the enemies, add new moves and items!

A game that has no originality at all would not be recieved well by the community, because it'd just be replaying the sample maps. It wouldn't be YOUR game, it'd be like copying a book with a few words changed and trying to sell it to someone. Whereas just using the RTP is like using the same writing style and plot elements as that book, but in your own unique way. Which is incredibly awesome.

Sometimes it can even show off MORE skill that someone was really creative with limited resources.

 

But if I was the one who misinterpreted the previous topic, then sorry. I still maintain that I did not misinterpret amerk and it was cruel to put words into his mouth.

 

EDIT: Just to add, I read 'default database' as being.. 'default database'. Aka the actor stats and skills and items and stuff, not the graphics. I'm assuming that was what was meant? Personally I think that's very uncreative because you can have a lot of fun making up new stories for those default character images, or inventing strange new moves. The adventures of eric the warrior with eric the warrior's skills would be very samey, but calling the same guy gregory the paladin with all sorts of custom stat editing and a new plot would be great!

 

DOUBLE EDIT: Okay i reread the old opening post and it appears I was the one who misinterpreted it, so my apologies for this.

"By loading all the sample maps

Uses nothing but stock resources for database 

Takes a whole month for the project"

They do appear to actually be anti-RTP in general and if I'd read the post and taken that interpretation I would have criticized it as being unwelcoming and elitist too. I still feel amerk's response was perfectly reasonable though, and they probably also interpreted the topic as not being anti-RTP. Woulda been perfectly fine with omedon if they'd said what they said to the OP, instead of at amerk. But I definately overreacted due to a mistake, so I'm very sorry about that.

Edited December 31, 2012 by Bunni89

[+ Titanhex 284]

Ya'll are fighting a battle that's more in your heads than it is out here.

 

Using non-RTP resources can only help your game (Provided you're not mashing everything together with little idea what you're doing).

Using RTP resources does not hurt your game.

If you want to have more control over your game, being perhaps a more creative or artistic individual, you'll search beyond RTP and find resources.

Using only one resource is a limitation.

Using only the base you're given is a limitation.

Limitations can affect quality.

 

These are reasons why RTP games are both okay, and attached to a stigma of disdain.

 

Video games are a form of entertainment, as well as art (official declaration in 2006).

We have every right to have a personal preference or taste towards them.

However, it is true that being jaded to a style can diminish our ability to enjoy it.

 

I'm an elitist. I want to reach a professional level.  I have a passion for this.  So do others.  That passion can become jade. I honestly enjoy really good games with custom graphics, and amazing systems.

 

However, I have enjoyed very RTP styled games and seen them loved by many others.

 

Making a game isn't about the effort you put into it or the resources you use or how original it is.

Those are things we do personally, for ourself.

Ask yourself, why am I making a game?

Is it because you want to tell a story?

Is it because you want to do something fun?

Is it because you are just bored?

If these are the reasons then fine, make a game. You can show it to your friends, but don't expect others to like it.

 

But if you want to make a game good you have to understand one concept:

Fun.

 

An abstract, extremely arduous concept to master.

Fun isn't about using RTP, or crazy systems, or custom scripts or custom database entries.

It's much harder to grasp.

 

We all have different reasons for making games. Still, we all have the same reason for playing them. Fun.  A word that is the core in being entertained.

 

With all this in mind, Omegdon raises a point about being jaded.  We are stopping ourselves from having fun.

 

Me personally, I'm fine with this. I don't come here to have fun, I come here to create a reputation, test my skills, and improve said skills. Sometimes I have fun doing it. When making something where fun is the core of good, it's important to have fun. It's important to play games and understand what fun is and isn't.

 

Do I like Omegdon's attitude? In some ways, no. He's prideful. He's unaccepting.  Doesn't mean he's wrong.

 

I do think you might be projecting though Bunni, putting your anger on him. You're arguing a point that's become far too personal for you, and you're just making it hard on your health being frustrated trying to argue.  I understand you may be worried your reputation is at stake, but it's really not. No one here is against you. I doubt Omegdon even is.  Find your points to agree on, and agree on them, then take your points you disagree and just accept that you disagree.  You'll find you probably agree on the similar points but you just don't like each other's personalities.

 

Fun is fun. That's all there is to it.

Edited December 31, 2012 by Titanhex

[omedon666 4]

Do I like Omedon's attitude? In some ways, no. He's prideful. He's unaccepting. 

Haha my friends would give you a cookie for this very accurate observation!  You sir (or madam) are a great judge of people

Edited December 31, 2012 by omedon666

[Wren 179]

Do I like Omedon's attitude? In some ways, no. He's prideful. He's unaccepting. 

Haha my friends would give you a cookie for this very accurate observation!  You sir are a great judge of people

Well, Aes Sedai are usually prideful and unaccepting so your forum avatar is appropriate?

 

Notice how Titanhex confirms there is a bias and an assumption that using and out of box resources is limiting, thereby alienating a large percentage of newer game designers since they will not have the desire (because to them RTP is new and fresh) or the know-how to use custom resources, or the contacts and friends who produce such custom resources.

 

Don't worry, someone will come along soon and say that there isn't any anti RTP sentiment and we are all imagining it.